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I know it’s been said coaches shouldn’t be arguing and bashing refs when we’re in a time where we’re short on officials... but honestly that’s expected from coaches I think the real issue is too much pressure is being placed on officials from the association! the type of officiating you receive depends on where you’re playing location wise and what’s at stake! Officials are making poor critical calls due to the fact that they’re are being watched by the “Powers that Be” and it’s sad! 

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37 minutes ago, LarryRandolph said:

Can you explain and give an example?

Sometimes you get a good crew. Sometimes terrible.  I went to a high school basketball game last night were officiated was horrendous. 

Vance/Richmond. Greer makes an OBVIOUS grounding penalty, the flag was thrown 5 seconds after he grounded the ball, mind you the play was blown dead and everything. Can you take a guess what the call was? Illegal Formation. Instead of a loss of Down plus ball where it was grounded we only loss a few yards and repeated the down. Ended up scoring that drive. It also sounded like the ref attempted to backtrack the call but it was too late. But yeah, they’re awful. 

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14 minutes ago, harlem545 said:

Vance/Richmond. Greer makes an OBVIOUS grounding penalty, the flag was thrown 5 seconds after he grounded the ball, mind you the play was blown dead and everything. Can you take a guess what the call was? Illegal Formation. Instead of a loss of Down plus ball where it was grounded we only loss a few yards and repeated the down. Ended up scoring that drive. It also sounded like the ref attempted to backtrack the call but it was too late. But yeah, they’re awful. 

I thought the illegal formation  flag on that play was thrown by the line judge on the Richmond sideline at the snap?

May be it should have been an intentional grounding.  He was being slung down when he threw the ball which seemed to cause the trajectory. Could argument be made that it was in the area of a Vance player.  I would like to see the film on it.

 

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16 minutes ago, btango said:

I thought the illegal formation  flag on that play was thrown by the line judge on the Richmond sideline at the snap?

May be it should have been an intentional grounding.  He was being slung down when he threw the ball which seemed to cause the trajectory. Could argument be made that it was in the area of a Vance player.  I would like to see the film on it.

 

From my angle only 55 was in the area and he’s a tackle plus the ref didn’t even throw the flag until after he grounded it. So we all assumed grounding. Was weird indeed. 

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20 minutes ago, harlem545 said:

From my angle only 55 was in the area and he’s a tackle plus the ref didn’t even throw the flag until after he grounded it. So we all assumed grounding. Was weird indeed. 

The flag was thrown directly at the QB after he made the throw. It was a head scratcher but to be fair I thought they called an excellent game last night. Yeah, I get that fans want to scream and yell and talk about biased refs and I have seen some poor ones but they were in postion and kept the game moving last night. 

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46 minutes ago, GoodKNIGHT said:

Last night at Robbinsville was no doubt one of the worst crews that's ever been at The Big Oaks

Every time we got a couple good runs the refs would slow down the game discussing something.

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4 hours ago, GoodKNIGHT said:

Last night at Robbinsville was no doubt one of the worst crews that's ever been at The Big Oaks

If you think it is bad in high school you should go watch some middle school basketball! There  are some that I am not sure can spell basketball much less know the rules.  On Monday at my Goddaughters game one ref acted like he had never seen a basketball, he didn't even know where to be on the court during free throws. My Goddaughter blocked a shot and he blew the whistle stopped play and gave them the ball out of bounds, the one call he got right he let the other ref overrule him and he was 3/4 of the way down court from the play. They had both sides yelling at them.

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Referees need more Pay and Training period, even in Basketball bc as @wonderfan has stated about basketball ^ ; With Any  HS sports if there is a NEED at the HS LEVEL then POP Warner referees or even first year middle school referees gets moved up to JV game and even some that have 0 training get to referee at the HS level. One referee last year, He referee at a JV game at South Iredell and He was NEW and Hist first game ever and U could tell because he didn't know how to signal a foul, didn't know how to blow the whistle and other stuff you SHOULD know how to do! To me this HURTS the game and Hurts the IMAGE of being a referee esp if your a GOOD referee!

This year has been Sub-Par in Football period. Either its Pressure from the State to make more calls or whatever the case then the issues need to be address for those who are Referee, I understand there is a Shortage but the referee I worked with when I referee are in 40s-50s and im sure some in their 30s and even a rare 25 year old is in their as well so I think we need more 23-28 year olds to get involved in referee.  
 

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Most good referees quit or retired. They catch so much grief that I don’t blame em. Having said that, you should have to go to training extensive training before you start calling games. I agree with above poster if you want to see a show go watch middle school games. These dudes look like they just got out of the homeless shelter 

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I have had an occasion to complain about officiating after the game in our meeting. I have never and will never complain on here. I have tried my hand at officiating and will tell you that it is not easy. It is a thankless job. The fact is they are paid enough. More pay will only put a bigger burden on the schools athletic department budget. Remember also that if they have to come back to finish a game they get full pay for the make up portion as well. If you have never tried officiating try it sometime and you will see how difficult it is. I will agree that some officials have a bad attitude (some when they into the stadium) and should be removed. Fans do not see this but coaches do. Especially when they have been marked off. They are not suppose to find this out but they do and if you happen to get them on the road you know that they know. Their body language and attitude tell it all.

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I can tell you pay is an issue.  I have had more than one former referee or people that have looked at getting into high school officiating tell me this.  

One took a part time job at Lowe’s.  He said with the cost to be an official compared to what he would initially make he was better off.  Said the BS refs put up with played a part in his decision.

Another told me he had to leave work early and the loss there made it more challenging.

I am sure there are many that will say they do not do it fir the money but quit paying them and see if they show up.

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16 minutes ago, WiseOne88 said:

Pay isn’t that bad...an official who officiates regularly will make more than a HS head football coach will! THATS A FACT 

If your primary job allows you to do so.  One friend works from home on his hours and it works great fir him.  I could easily do it now time wise but there was a time I could never have committed to it due to employment obligations.

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One took a part time job at Lowe’s.  He said with the cost to be an official compared to what he would initially make he was better off.  Said the BS refs put up with played a part in his decision.

You could say the same thing about coaches, but we still coach. Unlike coaches they do it for the money. They make more per hour than coaches. Many coaches receive no pay and still show up and get the job done. Many coaches work at their full time jobs and make arrangements to be at practice on time. So, forgive me if I don't sound sympathetic toward them. I actually would like to know why some do it because they come to the game with an attitude that they do not want to be there. I base this on their arrogant attitude they display when they step foot on the field.

Said the BS refs put up with played a part in his decision.

We put up with a lot of their BS as well. Normally from the ones with bad attitudes and those who are not very good with control issues. It is funny that the ones who are good at their jobs seldom get into heated skirmishes with coaches. They have a way of handling those situations so that they don't escalate.  The one thing that separates them is that they  don't threaten and have a way of calming the situation down.

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12 minutes ago, Glenn said:

One took a part time job at Lowe’s.  He said with the cost to be an official compared to what he would initially make he was better off.  Said the BS refs put up with played a part in his decision.

You could say the same thing about coaches, but we still coach. Unlike coaches they do it for the money. They make more per hour than coaches. Many coaches receive no pay and still show up and get the job done. Many coaches work at their full time jobs and make arrangements to be at practice on time. So, forgive me if I don't sound sympathetic toward them. I actually would like to know why some do it because they come to the game with an attitude that they do not want to be there. I base this on their arrogant attitude they display when they step foot on the field.

You teach at a school, you coach at a school or in the system.  In your case you are retired and are not dependent on the income.

One of the biggest issues facing high school sports is lack of officials much less quality officials so regardless the reason it must be aggressively addressed.

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That is my situation but several of our coaches work full time jobs and still make it to practice. Some work a full time job and coach for free. Jeff Snuffer (Western Alamance HS) is the only coach on staff at WAHS, All his assistants work other jobs.

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I know many that do not teach but coach.  Some are unpaid volunteers and some are "paid volunteers."  

I think schools are missing a huge positive influence by not having coaches in the building not only for their players but for all students.  A lot of coaches can relate really well to kids even those that are not athletes.  If I were a principal this would be something that I would push for.

I think a lot of people think of refereeing as a way to be involved but are not going to put up with the BS without some monetary reward.  At least when you coach you have a "chance" of half the people loving you.  Whether it be your "fans" or the opponents.  

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3 hours ago, btango said:

I know many that do not teach but coach.  Some are unpaid volunteers and some are "paid volunteers."  

I think schools are missing a huge positive influence by not having coaches in the building not only for their players but for all students.  A lot of coaches can relate really well to kids even those that are not athletes.  If I were a principal this would be something that I would push for.

I think a lot of people think of refereeing as a way to be involved but are not going to put up with the BS without some monetary reward.  At least when you coach you have a "chance" of half the people loving you.  Whether it be your "fans" or the opponents.  

If you at least appear to understand the rules it would help people "like" you. I understand they are not professional's I can deal with you being bad just be consistent is all I ask! 

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On 12/7/2019 at 12:13 PM, Wrigley said:

 

The flag was thrown directly at the QB after he made the throw. It was a head scratcher but to be fair I thought they called an excellent game last night. Yeah, I get that fans want to scream and yell and talk about biased refs and I have seen some poor ones but they were in postion and kept the game moving last night. 

I believe the RB convinced them he was in the area. I really had more issue with the OPI non calls. Unless the rules have changed, I don't get how WRs are allowed to place two hands on the DBs and push off just before the ball arrives. Nor does it seem right that a WR can hold & pull the jersey of the DB all the way down the sideline to gain separation, but neither were called in our games the last two weeks.

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25 minutes ago, 1Twister said:

I believe the RB convinced them he was in the area. I really had more issue with the OPI non calls. Unless the rules have changed, I don't get how WRs are allowed to place two hands on the DBs and push off just before the ball arrives. Nor does it seem right that a WR can hold & pull the jersey of the DB all the way down the sideline to gain separation, but neither were called in our games the last two weeks.

As I posted in another thread I have given up on PI calls. The NFL doesnt seem to know what is or isnt pass interference so its hard to hold HS refs accountable.  There hasnt been a game in 4-5 years that I have attended where I have seen calls that were crazy. Funny thing about fans is they always see the ones that go against them, rarely do they argue the ones that go for them. I will say this......they are consistent in their inconsistency.  

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Ok here is the situation  Richmond VS Vance...Ref on Richmond side throws flag at snap for illegal formation , play continues....Richmond gets to qb for sack, as he is going to ground qb flips ball 4-5 foot to ground , then  head ref throws flag right at him on the sack.....Head Ref then calls Illegal formation , 5 yard penalty....Vance gets ball back and scores ,to go ahead ,  instead of it being loss of down and 4th down and punting......Biggest call of the game...OK , officials give us your opinion.....Should have been punting ......Total momentum changer.....

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My dig with officiating is yes lack of pay but I also think that they should pay these guys and gals travel so that you don't get home cooking officiating at games.  2 of the worst officiated games I have attended were at Rockingham County and Person County.  Tough to watch games that refs control.  Damn shame to not let these kids decide it on the field.  They would also find that some of the BS would go away if they didn't miss blatant calls and or try to keep a game close.  I understand it could be lack of experience but it also is clearly some home bias in a lot of cases.  Makes it hard to travel when you have to play the team and the refs.

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1 hour ago, raider1 said:

Ok here is the situation  Richmond VS Vance...Ref on Richmond side throws flag at snap for illegal formation , play continues....Richmond gets to qb for sack, as he is going to ground , head ref throws flag right at him on the sack.....Head Ref then calls Illegal formation , 5 yard penalty....Vance gets ball back and scores ,to go ahead ,  instead of it being loss of down and 4th down and punting......Biggest call of the game...OK , officials give us your opinion.....Should have been punting ......Total momentum changer.....

LMAO...38-7. Congrats to your Raiders on a helluva season but it was one call. You guys got RUN.

Fans are the best....complete memory loss on the non- fumble in a one score game against MP but a illegal formation call in a 31 pt thumping is a " total momentum changer"

Hysterical. 

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H

2 hours ago, raider1 said:

Ok here is the situation  Richmond VS Vance...Ref on Richmond side throws flag at snap for illegal formation , play continues....Richmond gets to qb for sack, as he is going to ground he flips ball to ground  , head ref throws flag right at him on the sack.....Head Ref then calls Illegal formation , 5 yard penalty....Vance gets ball back and scores ,to go ahead ,  instead of it being loss of down and 4th down and punting......Biggest call of the game...OK , officials give us your opinion.....Should have been punting ......Total momentum changer.....

Head supervisor of officials  from Fayetteville was at the game...I would really love to get his opinion of that play......No doubt in anybodies mind it was intentional grounding , loss of down......

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I know many that do not teach but coach.  Some are unpaid volunteers and some are "paid volunteers."  

I think schools are missing a huge positive influence by not having coaches in the building not only for their players but for all students.  A lot of coaches can relate really well to kids even those that are not athletes.  If I were a principal this would be something that I would push for.

I totally agree.

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Did anyone notice the music and PA was not playing up until the snap or really even during the huddle Friday night?  Happened once as Vance went to the line that I remember.  

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6 minutes ago, Glenn said:

I know many that do not teach but coach.  Some are unpaid volunteers and some are "paid volunteers."  

I think schools are missing a huge positive influence by not having coaches in the building not only for their players but for all students.  A lot of coaches can relate really well to kids even those that are not athletes.  If I were a principal this would be something that I would push for.

I totally agree.

unless you have a school that teaches nothing but PE classes, it's gonna be hard to find good coaches. Someone isn't doing a good enough job at the college level of letting student athletes know that you can't all be PE teachers.

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One of my Media friends told me : He knows the Head guy who controls all the Referee groups and He has only been here for 2 years or so and He trying his best to address and fix referees as best as he can. There are some good referees and I worked with some of those referee and There are many HS Referees that do D3/D2 College game with some very few doing D1.  Even College referee misses stuff but they usually have better training and way better pay. 

Like I said I wish the State would pay for 1 week even for ALL referee at different Location like One in Charlotte, One in Ashesville, One in Fayetteville etc and Bring in some College referee to train and help the HS referees learn different things to look for from Holding to PI or whatever the case. 

 

6 hours ago, GSOFootballFan said:

My dig with officiating is yes lack of pay but I also think that they should pay these guys and gals travel so that you don't get home cooking officiating at games.  2 of the worst officiated games I have attended were at Rockingham County and Person County.  Tough to watch games that refs control.  Damn shame to not let these kids decide it on the field.  They would also find that some of the BS would go away if they didn't miss blatant calls and or try to keep a game close.  I understand it could be lack of experience but it also is clearly some home bias in a lot of cases.  Makes it hard to travel when you have to play the team and the refs.

They actually do have referee come from a different area , Like in Mooresville if its a Home game then the referees usually come from Inner Piedmont and Usually the referee come from Hickory and Surrounding area but Ofc people usually know about Mooresville in those areas but I do agree, Paying referee to travel a bit further would help bc I know some referee from the Inner Piedmont sometime they travel 1 Hr 30 mins to a game so |

The worst referee crew we have had this year was at Home vs Page, Every time Mooresville got a 3rd and 4th down stop their was a Flag for Defensive Holding , I'm not saying all them were bad but When u let Page be on the field for the Whole 3rd Qtr becuase Mooresville had like 5 Defense Holding, 1 Face mask (Correct call) and 1 Roughing the Passer (Which was the correct call) and then they finally score after the 5th Defense holding which in the endzone so the ball was like at 2-3 yard line n Page scored. Only thing I disagree with I RARELY EVER SEE DEFENSE HOLDING CALL , I know I seen it 1 time in a STATE TITLE GAME like 2-3 years ago, Im not saying it DOESN'T get call but I NEVER SEEN IT CALL IN THE REGULAR SEASON so If your calling something in Playoffs then its needs to be called in the regular season. 

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I understand they are not professional's I can deal with you being bad just be consistent is all I ask! 

Agree. However, they should do everything they can to have a complete understanding of the rules. They should do this because they have the desire to be the best they can be. The one thing I see in college games is that the officials get together on calls to make sure they get it right. This never happens in HS FB. Plus I have seen officials who have a better view of something yet an official 30 yards makes the call. When asked why he does not put in his 2 cents, his answer is that was not his call even though he had a better view of the play. I am also convinced that in HS FB if a receiver blocks a defender for more than 5 seconds they will be called for holding because the official thinks that if a receiver is able to block a defender for longer than 5 seconds he has to be holding him even though he does not actually see him holding. We see this all the time and when we look at the play on video the block was clean regardless if it was our receiver or the opponents receiver.

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11 minutes ago, Glenn said:

I understand they are not professional's I can deal with you being bad just be consistent is all I ask! 

Agree. However, they should do everything they can to have a complete understanding of the rules. They should do this because they have the desire to be the best they can be. The one thing I see in college games is that the officials get together on calls to make sure they get it right. This never happens in HS FB. Plus I have seen officials who have a better view of something yet an official 30 yards makes the call. When asked why he does not put in his 2 cents, his answer is that was not his call even though he had a better view of the play. I am also convinced that in HS FB if a receiver blocks a defender for more than 5 seconds they will be called for holding because the official thinks that if a receiver is able to block a defender for longer than 5 seconds he has to be holding him even though he does not actually see him holding. We see this all the time and when we look at the play on video the block was clean regardless if it was our receiver or the opponents receiver.

+1 ... I was told when I referee to always make sure u see the whole play throughout , make sure your in SPOT to make a call n always keep the play in front of u if its on your side, if your trailing because the play go to far side, u watch for anything that could be illegal like cheap shot or something away from the play 

Big thing is those, Every referee is different - Some just do Pee-wee, some just do JV, some just do Varsity, Some do college n HS or whatever the case. Every referee has a day time job which I feel does affect how they referee the game bc if their already in bad mood or had a bad day does that come on to the field? For me , I always tried to forget everything n Reset and make sure im FOCUS on referee the game regardless of if i had a bad day or whatever! 
 Also I do agree HS referees need to TALK more but the issue is You never work with the same crew so Some referee want to throw the flag 100 times a game n then some dont want throw a flag at all so It can be tough to work with some guys n you work with better with others like with me and Also I loved some of my referee partners in basketball and then I didnt like some of them so Same goes with any sport like 

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unless you have a school that teaches nothing but PE classes, it's gonna be hard to find good coaches. Someone isn't doing a good enough job at the college level of letting student athletes know that you can't all be PE teachers.

This has not been my experience. Most of the coaches I have coached with teach in areas other than PE. Saying that good coaches are only able to teach PE is stereotyping them as not being intelligent enough to teach biology, math, social studies, computer science, etc. At EG only 2 of our FB coaches teach PE. The HC teaches WL and one assistant teaches Health & PE and ISS. The rest teach those other subjects. I have degrees in Health & Physical Education, Biology, Electronics, Drafting, and a Masters Degree in Safety and Driver Education. I have taught Health & Physical Education, Weight Training, Biology, Physical Science, Math, Geology, Drafting, Keyboarding, and Art.

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2 minutes ago, Glenn said:

unless you have a school that teaches nothing but PE classes, it's gonna be hard to find good coaches. Someone isn't doing a good enough job at the college level of letting student athletes know that you can't all be PE teachers.

This has not been my experience. Most of the coaches I have coached with teach in areas other than PE. Saying that good coaches are only able to teach PE is stereotyping them as not being intelligent enough to teach biology, math, social studies, computer science, etc. At EG only 2 of our FB coaches teach PE. The HC teaches WL and one assistant teaches Health & PE and ISS. The rest teach those other subjects. I have degrees in Health & Physical Education, Biology, Electronics, Drafting, and a Masters Degree in Safety and Driver Education. I have taught Health & Physical Education, Weight Training, Biology, Physical Science, Math, Geology, Drafting, Keyboarding, and Art.

Currently, that may be the case but as the Millennial's start to enter the workforce, you are finding a lot of them with PE degrees and wanting to coach. That's why we are seeing more and more "volunteer" coaches and less coaches that are also teachers.

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Blue DevilsBiggest Fan

+1 ... I was told when I referee to always make sure u see the whole play throughout , make sure your in SPOT to make a call n always keep the play in front of u if its on your side, if your trailing because the play go to far side, u watch for anything that could be illegal like cheap shot or something away from the play 

Great observation. Thank you for your input. I was told by an official friend of mine who has been an official for many years that in workshops the older officials try very hard to get the younger officials to understand that a non flagrant foul totally away from the play (one that has no affect on the play) should not be called. He said that many young officials are very smart and know all the rules but have no feeling for the game in applying the rules like the example above. I will agree that there are coaches who go over the deep end and they should be held accountable for their actions.

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Currently, that may be the case but as the Millennial's start to enter the workforce, you are finding a lot of them with PE degrees and wanting to coach. That's why we are seeing more and more "volunteer" coaches and less coaches that are also teachers.

I am a Perennial which means I come back every year. One of my neighbors who is head of teacher education at Elon University (who was a Health & Physical Education Professor) tells me that there are less and less students getting degrees in this area. As a matter of fact fewer and fewer students are getting degrees in Education.

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21 minutes ago, Glenn said:

Blue DevilsBiggest Fan

+1 ... I was told when I referee to always make sure u see the whole play throughout , make sure your in SPOT to make a call n always keep the play in front of u if its on your side, if your trailing because the play go to far side, u watch for anything that could be illegal like cheap shot or something away from the play 

Great observation. Thank you for your input. I was told by an official friend of mine who has been an official for many years that in workshops the older officials try very hard to get the younger officials to understand that a non flagrant foul totally away from the play (one that has no affect on the play) should not be called. He said that many young officials are very smart and know all the rules but have no feeling for the game in applying the rules like the example above. I will agree that there are coaches who go over the deep end and they should be held accountable for their actions.

Well I feel like even older referee throw flags that shouldn't be thrown bc its doesn't affect the play but they do so i mean I agree with above because personally Most younger guys would rather coach than referee so Referee isnt for everyone because as a referee U have learn fast, u gotta pick up on things but a lot of it is depending on you learning in the games and learning from other referees but My issue is When they tell you dont do this or dont do that or whatever, but yet u see it on Fridays, Saturdays , Sundays and it trickles down and then everyone is make the mistakes 

Just like in Basketball there specific things u must do to be a GOOD basketball referee , U have be a floor general u cant be scared to make a call because some are, U cant be scared to call a Technical foul because some are, U have make sure u teach players what they are doing wrong and Same goes with Football but some try do what College, NFL referees do which at HS level isn't the correct way because some of these kids are NOT the next Kobe or Lebron or the next Cam Newton or whatever 

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I will tell of a story when I was playing youth baseball. I was up at bat and my brother was behind the fence where he could see the balls coming in. Pitcher throws the ball and my brother seen what he thought was a bad call. He made a statement to where the ump could hear what he said. Then the ump whirls around and saids do you want to come out here and make the calls. Lol 

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1 hour ago, btango said:

Did anyone notice the music and PA was not playing up until the snap or really even during the huddle Friday night?  Happened once as Vance went to the line that I remember.  

I did notice. I also noticed the Vance band playing non stop during RC possesions... LOL

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7 hours ago, raider1 said:

H

Head supervisor of officials  from Fayetteville was at the game...I would really love to get his opinion of that play......No doubt in anybodies mind it was intentional grounding , loss of down......

Still waiting on comment from certified football head official...

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