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2021 5 classification realignment

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Why is this so difficult? It's not brain surgery and it is done all across America.

Divide the schools up by 5 . Eliminate the AA. Eliminate byes. Eliminate split conferences. Forget East/West. Suck it up and play ball.

 

22 hours ago, btango said:

The first round bye is as much on the coaches.  The plan was four rounds initially but the 1A coaches flipped out.  In my opinion, it would have been more beneficial to their athletic programs and in general in several ways.

The football playoff byes is a minor issue considering the overall aspect of realignment and the fact the byes can go away.

Personally, the whole playoff system needs to be overhauled!

 

 

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5 hours ago, Fumblerooski said:

Why is this so difficult? It's not brain surgery and it is done all across America.

Divide the schools up by 5 . Eliminate the AA. Eliminate byes. Eliminate split conferences. Forget East/West. Suck it up and play ball.

If you could just say, "here it is," that would be great to me but not a lot of schools who must vote on this.  

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7 hours ago, Steelers71 said:

So is the realignment postponed until next year at this time? Doesn't that mean 2 more years in current conference and class?

2021 football season the next alignment will be in place if they continue on the four year cycle which is what has been announced.  The timing makes me wonder if they are testing the timeline for a plan on two year realignment periods in the future.

Expect we may here more Wednesday after the Board of Directors meetings.

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41 minutes ago, rville20 said:

It seems to me they always seem to hurt the small schools with any decision they make.

Give some specifics.

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13 minutes ago, btango said:

Give some specifics.

Having to compete with the charters and private schools, making us play schools twice our size, letting the ec scam happen to add even bigger schools into the 1a. I realize the ec scam effects the bigger schools also, but the effects aren't as drastic on the bigger programs because they have a sizeable student body to compete with. Lets use Robbinsville as an example, last year we were beat in the team wrestling duel state finals by one of the charter schools, and we have to compete in football almost every year with schools with an ec program which drops their adm's to the 1a level 

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I agree with you on the charters.  Let’s not exclude urban magnets and the private school.  I would go further and list schools that allow athletes that live outside the school’s geographical district participate in sports.  
 

Playing schools twice your size.  The setup now is about as low as I would want to see the number of football playing schools.  With four classes go to 15% or 550 ADM.  With that I would no longer want subdivided playoffs.  

EC is much more debatable.  Students are not in campus and if they are not allowed to play there is an argument.  What about the 1A football power that has a local charter school that brought their numbers below 2A.  Are you going to make them count their district students that go to the charter?  
Let’s remember, 1A wanted subdivided playoffs, the pod system, less teams in the classification, et al and they got that.

The issue with charters originates most likely with the representative that your neighbors elect.

With that said, the 1A schools are too concerned about screwing each other that they cannot get together on any thing.  May be when two charters win the 1A state football championships they will put the student things aside.

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8 minutes ago, btango said:

I agree with you on the charters.  Let’s not exclude urban charters and the private school.  I would go further and list schools that allow athletes that live outside the school’s geographical district participate in sports.  
 

Playing schools twice your size.  The setup now is about as low as I would want to see the number of football playing schools.  With four classes go to 15% or 550 ADM.  With that I would no longer want subdivided playoffs.  

EC is much more debatable.  Students are not in campus and if they are not allowed to play there is an argument.  What about the 1A football power that has a local charter school that brought their numbers below 2A.  Are you going to make them count their district students that go to the charter?  
Let’s remember, 1A wanted subdivided playoffs, the pod system, less teams in the classification, et al and they got that.

The issue with charters originates most likely with the representative that your neighbors elect.

With that said, the 1A schools are too concerned about screwing each other that they cannot get together on any thing.  May be when two charters win the 1A state football championships they will put the student things aside.

At 550 that has Rville playing schools with 200 more kids, I think our number this 370 ish, is that an equal playing field. Something needs to be done with the ec scam, look at Tarboro they haven't lost a game since they started the ec and dropped to 1AA, they were at 512 this year, they are going to drop into 1a soon according to their adm's but they haven't lost one football player to the ec school since it started. Not one of their football players transfers to the ec.

What the ec program is doing is segregating our schools, and I'm not talking a black and white thing, I talking about athletes vs non athletes.  

As far as the 1a and the subdivided playoffs, it started out as a way to equal the playing field according to the student bodies in the schools, but this is what led to the ec scam. 

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The first round bye is as much on the coaches.  The plan was four rounds initially but the 1A coaches flipped out.  In my opinion, it would have been more beneficial to their athletic programs and in general in several ways.

I disagree that the coaches were the reason for the byes. The 20-30-30-20 plan is the real problem and the powers that be who met in CH came up with this plan. Coaches have no voice in what happens in this meeting. They are represented but are out numbered by AD's, Principal's, Superintendent's and NCHSAA administrators.

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Glenn, with the 32 teams qualifying there would not have been a bye.  With 32 teams making the playoffs that is 42% of the teams qualifying.  I would think nearly half the schools making the playoffs would be sufficient.  

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3 hours ago, rville20 said:

At 550 that has Rville playing schools with 200 more kids, I think our number this 370 ish, is that an equal playing field.

What type of alignment do you propose?  How many classes and how do you break it down?

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5 hours ago, btango said:

What type of alignment do you propose?  How many classes and how do you break it down?

I would put the charters, private, and schools of that type into their own group, let them play each other for the trophy. 

 Four or five classes for the traditional schools would be ok with me, 500 in 1a would be acceptable if they remove the ec scam, 450 in 1a as long as the ec scam is as is now.

Lets take a look at 1a with your number of 550. If the school has an ec program they probably have 150 kids in it, add to that an alternative school with 50 kids in that, the number of 550 is really 750. I'm sure within each classification the same can be applied but with greater numbers, Robbinsville still has their 370 to play with. I'm not looking for an advantage for Robbinsville, a hill in front of us to climb is ok, lets not make it mountain.

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1.Put the Charters in with the privates. Let the Charters be at a disadvantage for a change. 

2.Put the Charters into their own playoffs. Why would any Charter fan be against this? 

3.Use multiplier to ALL schools with 3% of kids outside their district.

4. Put the 3 Catholics up with the privates or up 1 class.

 

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59 minutes ago, Knights said:

1.Put the Charters in with the privates. Let the Charters be at a disadvantage for a change. 

2.Put the Charters into their own playoffs. Why would any Charter fan be against this? 

3.Use multiplier to ALL schools with 3% of kids outside their district.

4. Put the 3 Catholics up with the privates or up 1 class.

 

1.  The charters are public schools.  They are not going into the private school association.  Review your legislator's votes on charter schools.  I would be confronting him about the issue.  There is pressure from Raleigh on this.

2.  Would not work for football as there are only a couple of teams.  I personally would recommend they play 2A in football.  Use a set number of schools, if they are under that number they play up in the playoffs.  If they are under the set number they can have a state playoff to themselves.

3.  I would say if any students are allowed to play sports except for a limited set of rules then they use a multiplier.  I would like to see 1A be a true "traditional" classification.  The urban magnets and open enrollment are a major issue to me.

4.  Move the Catholics up one classification is agreeable in my opinion.  The big issue is them playing 1A!

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1 hour ago, Knights said:

12.5-25-25-25-12.5.

 

How many football teams would be in 1a under this setup?

Right at 47.

That would put the number under 520 or less.

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1 hour ago, rville20 said:

I would put the charters, private, and schools of that type into their own group, let them play each other for the trophy. 

 Four or five classes for the traditional schools would be ok with me, 500 in 1a would be acceptable if they remove the ec scam, 450 in 1a as long as the ec scam is as is now.

Lets take a look at 1a with your number of 550. If the school has an ec program they probably have 150 kids in it, add to that an alternative school with 50 kids in that, the number of 550 is really 750. I'm sure within each classification the same can be applied but with greater numbers, Robbinsville still has their 370 to play with. I'm not looking for an advantage for Robbinsville, a hill in front of us to climb is ok, lets not make it mountain.

Albemarle added back in the EC and alternative school students to their ADM this school year as those students are now allowed to play sports at their home school.  AHS is by far the smallest school in the county but had about the same number of students in those programs.  They added back in 55.  It needs to be looked at closer but some schools benefit from a nearby charter that is taking nearly 20% of their students.  I could see winning the EC battle but not the charter one which is probably much less prominent than the example I noted.  Once you get out of 1A I do not think it makes anywhere near the difference and less as it goes up in class.

A few years ago a basketball player was being interviewed after her team won the state 4A title game.  She was asked about how the school had supported them and a pep rally was mentioned.  She replied she did not go to the school but a special magnet that did not have sports and the students played at the school she represented.  In 4A I do not see that as such a big issue.  In 1A it could be huge.

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After looking at it closer no way 1a can be below 500. 

520 probably. NC just doesn't have enough small schools. 

If you remove the Charters 1a would need to go up to 530-550 to have enough teams.

 

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Maybe count half the EC kids in their original school district for enrollment after the original enrollment for the school funds

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10 hours ago, rville20 said:

At 550 that has Rville playing schools with 200 more kids, I think our number this 370 ish, is that an equal playing field. Something needs to be done with the ec scam, look at Tarboro they haven't lost a game since they started the ec and dropped to 1AA, they were at 512 this year, they are going to drop into 1a soon according to their adm's but they haven't lost one football player to the ec school since it started. Not one of their football players transfers to the ec.

What the ec program is doing is segregating our schools, and I'm not talking a black and white thing, I talking about athletes vs non athletes.  

As far as the 1a and the subdivided playoffs, it started out as a way to equal the playing field according to the student bodies in the schools, but this is what led to the ec scam. 

I agree about playing schools twice your size and how schools with larger enrollment can absorb that a little easier. But, that street runs both ways. Lets say that Columbia gets on a roll and makes the final and plays Robbinsville. In that case Robbinsville has 197 more students than Columbia (RHS adm 375, CHS adm 178). Is that fair, for RHS to play the Wildcats?

As far as this whole EC thing goes it's a moot point. Those kids are looking for a leg up in life and CHOSE to not play sports. To count them in the ADM numbers is wrong. They are not likely to be playing anyway so in actuality these schools are still drawing from the same pool of athletes. Yes it affects the classifications but it really does not affect the available athletes. And that street goes both ways as well. IF we count them in the ADM's and still not allow them to play you then punish that team by having to play up a class.

As for segregation, It is the students that are segregating themselves. They are choosing higher chance of success, with a diminished HS experience to boot, verse less of a chance of success. 

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I will say Catholic school's have zero affect in 1A outside of McGuiness, who in football is a nobody. A multiplier would work I think. Itd move them probably to 2A. 

Charters have a much bigger impact on 1A/2A. 

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5 minutes ago, Catholic said:

I will say Catholic school's have zero affect in 1A outside of McGuiness, who in football is a nobody. A multiplier would work I think. Itd move them probably to 2A. 

Charters have a much bigger impact on 1A/2A. 

Agree, Catholic.

McGuiness and football have not been an issue but it could be in 1A.  Their girls hoops team was loaded for nearly ten years and their were a lot of non Catholic players from all over the area playing.  Do not agree with that at all.  If Catholic schools require a player to be a church member based on some type of timeline and qualifications and to have been in a Catholic middle school for at least 8th grade year I am fine with them playing in their classification although 1A needs more limitations.

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We just played a school that had ----1400 students----  more than we have.....Dang, is that fair.......I dont think so.......RSH vs MP.....

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9 minutes ago, raider1 said:

We just played a school that had ----1400 students----  more than we have.....Dang, is that fair.......I dont think so.......RSH vs MP.....

*rolls eyes* 

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34 minutes ago, raider1 said:

We just played a school that had ----1400 students----  more than we have.....Dang, is that fair.......I dont think so.......RSH vs MP.....

your points supports the equal playing field discussion to a T. If its unfair in 1A its unfair in 4A. 

 

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8 minutes ago, Paul Graham said:

your points supports the equal playing field discussion to a T. If its unfair in 1A its unfair in 4A. 

 

He isn't 1A. He is 4AA. He is a Richmond County fan complaining about playing Myers Park. 

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53 minutes ago, raider1 said:

We just played a school that had ----1400 students----  more than we have.....Dang, is that fair.......I dont think so.......RSH vs MP.....

You were about three or four schools from being in small 4A.  Would you prefer that?  I wouldn’t for Richmond County.

Richmond, although a unique case, dressed more players than MP and had more players in the program.  

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Just now, btango said:

You were about three or four schools from being in small 4A.  Would you prefer that?  I wouldn’t for Richmond County.

Richmond, although a unique case, dressed more players than MP and had more players in the program.  

Oh well then Mr. raider1 yes it's fair. 

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If your athletics are not affected then you shouldn't drop down.

If Swain opened a EC next year and dropped from 550 to 450 going from AA to A would that be right? 

The classificationsvwas meant to make and even playing field. Normally when a school drops fromm550 to 450 They are less likely to be as good on a yearly basis. That's not the case when a school drops because of a EC. In this example Swain would be exactly the same at 450 as they was at 550. I don't think you should drop classes unless your program is affected. 

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We dressed about 20-25  JV players to reward them for how hard they worked during the season ...They have been some help on scout teams as far as keeping a fresh group alternating in and out....Different  group for offense and defense ...Keeps your practices  moving , no standing around ...It does help them stay warm...Dont really matter, just keep everyone about the same....1400 is not the same.....or EVEN CLOSE.....

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43 minutes ago, Catholic said:

He isn't 1A. He is 4AA. He is a Richmond County fan complaining about playing Myers Park. 

I know. I was saying his point is the same one Robbinsville fans have been making. 

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31 minutes ago, Knights said:

If Swain opened a EC next year and dropped from 550 to 450 going from AA to A would that be right? 

Under the current rules, yes it would.

The EC program is not and was not designed to give anyone a competitive edge. It was designed to give kids a fighting chance once they left high school. If a Swain County kid wanted to enroll at the EC in Sylva at SCC, I bet SCC would make it happen. The same for kids at Robbinsville if they wanted to enroll at Tri-County or SCC. 

I understand your concern about larger schools using this as a way to get out of a tougher sub-division or classification but I can't and won't believe its the case. The paper trail would stick out like a sore thumb and both the LEA and the community college involved would face serious charges from their governing bodies. Also, you would have to know ahead of time what the cutoffs for the sub-division and the classification would be in order for this to work.

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43 minutes ago, btango said:

although a unique case, Richmond dressed more players than MP and had more players in the program.  

Don't you think this is a cultural / traditional thing?

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44 minutes ago, Paul Graham said:

Don't you think this is a cultural / traditional thing?

Yes.  I would not penalize them for that either.  Oh, too many students participate in sports at Richmond, we will need to make it tougher on them.  That would be stupid.

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Paul I really don't understand what your saying. I'm not saying anyone is cheating.

I'm saying dropping 100 non athletes is an advantage. Overlapping districts is an advantage. Are you saying it's not?

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