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2021 5 classification realignment

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If I am Robbinsville I would be fine playing football with 1A being up to 550 to 600 students.  The participation and support will allow you to be in the mix for titles.  I believe your fight should be on removing charters, urban magnets, parochials, and open enrollment "traditional" schools out of 1A.  Robbinsville has impressive non football sports, including girls (!), but the continued growth of support for charters is going to rob them of titles.  That is the first fight.  Unfortunately, no one can figure out that they need to work together but point fingers at their conference rivals.

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2 minutes ago, btango said:

If I am Robbinsville I would be fine playing football with 1A being up to 550 to 600 students.  The participation and support will allow you to be in the mix for titles.  I believe your fight should be on removing charters, urban magnets, parochials, and open enrollment "traditional" schools out of 1A.  Robbinsville has impressive non football sports, including girls (!), but the continued growth of support for charters is going to rob them of titles.  That is the first fight.  Unfortunately, no one can figure out that they need to work together but point fingers at their conference rivals.

Those numbers are almost double the number of students we have, plus the ec numbers all the bigger schools take away from their true numbers. You do know how that works don't you, none of  the kids going to these ec schools play football anyway so the primary schools still draw from the higher number of kids, getting to subtract those kids automatically drops those schools a classification, While little schools like R'ville just go with what we have and compete. Don't make it any harder on us by raising the numbers back to where they were in the 90's. Madden put us out 1 year then Graham put us out another, both schools twice our size. 

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3 minutes ago, rville20 said:

You do know how that works don't you, none of  the kids going to these ec schools play football anyway so the primary schools still draw from the higher number of kids, getting to subtract those kids automatically drops those schools a classification, While little schools like R'ville just go with what we have and compete. Don't make it any harder on us by raising the numbers back to where they were in the 90's. Madden put us out 1 year then Graham put us out another, both schools twice our size. 

Yes, I know how it works.  That is an item that needs to be changed.  I have always thought those students should count in the ADM if the school they are attending does not have sports even if they cannot play sports at their home school.  

I am sure Bob and Modeal would get a laugh out of the "go with what we have and compete" line.

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i could see this as a possibility 

 

Sac 8 version adding 5a:                      sac 8 version without 5a:


 

Sac 8 split conference                          Sac 8 split conference   

*Richmond   5a                                    richmond 4a

*Hoke Co. 5a                                        hoke county 4a

*Lumberton 5a                                      lumberton 4a

* Pinecrest 5a                                      pinecrest 4a

* Jack Britt 5a                                      montgomery central 3a

* Purnell Swett 4a                                purnell swett 3a

* Scotland 4a                                       scotland 3a

* Seventy First 4a                               union pines 3a

* Union Pines 4a

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23 minutes ago, bsballpirate said:

What is everyone's feeling on making all of the schools that can openly recruit(charter, private, parochial)leave the NCHSAA and go the indy school league or Christian school league route? 

LOL must be new to this board 

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1 hour ago, bsballpirate said:

What is everyone's feeling on making all of the schools that can openly recruit(charter, private, parochial)leave the NCHSAA and go the indy school league or Christian school league route? 

This debate has been going on for years.

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On 10/31/2019 at 12:09 PM, btango said:

I like equitable to all but there are limitations to all options.  Have to meet a fine line in the middle and that seems very hard to accomplish.

Agree totally SC is a much more simple state to set up due to it geographical size and layout plus the number of schools but they battle, also.  There it is every two years which I think is needed in NC!

More classifications will most likely result in more split conferences or conferences with less teams.  Impossible to have the same amount of teams in conferences with more classes without having split conferences.  

There are not eight playoff "classifications" for any sport other than football.  I am ok with some form of subdividing or more champions in the playoffs but doubling it is too many.  Subdivided playoffs has built dynasties and the schools that are winning the small sub class would be in it to win it in a non subdivided playoff. 

I am hearing that the schools (ie coaches and ADs) are complaining about five classifications and are not supportive of the possibility.  Look back at my posts over the years and you will see a theme of everyone wants change and wants it to be better but when it comes time to make the changes the schools nix it.  

Eight years ago several options were put on the table for the upcoming realignment.  Davis Whitfield, the director at the time, felt that all options should be presented.  My favorite was football to be realigned separately from all other sports.  Six, five, four, and three classes were presented as options to look at.  Offset number of teams per classification were discussed.  Revamping the playoff formats (which I would like to see in football).  One thing that was a common theme, football coaches wanted to keep subdividing and all sports wanted more teams to qualify for the playoffs.

 

I dont think it would work..to much distance between some teams.some teams would have no conf that would work without long in conf road trips unless you just stuck them in some split conf..i think for nc 4a works well with a split playoff field in football.makes for fair match ups in playoffs with out smaller teams in a division have to compete with much larger teams to win state and if im not mistaken going to a 5a would require a vote with over 300 diff reps from diff conf / schools voting this in.I just dont see this passing.

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  Look back at my posts over the years and you will see a theme of everyone wants change and wants it to be better but when it comes time to make the changes the schools nix it.  

When you say everybody do you mean everybody (fans) on all the blog sites?

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3 minutes ago, Glenn said:

I never saw the original 25-25-25-25 system have as many problems as we now have with the 20-30-30-20 system.

What are the current problems that were not part of even splits?

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My proposal is to allow all the teams to play in the conference they are now in. At playoff time make a list of all teams with a minimum of 5 wins. List them according to their ADM no. Then divide them into 8 groups and let them play. It does not matter if they are 2A during the season. If their ADM nos. put them in a 3A playoff classification so be it.

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5 minutes ago, Glenn said:

  Look back at my posts over the years and you will see a theme of everyone wants change and wants it to be better but when it comes time to make the changes the schools nix it.  

When you say everybody do you mean everybody (fans) on all the blog sites?

No.  I am referencing the schools at the regional meetings, the coaches associations, et al.  

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You know as well as I do that the coaches never overrule the administrators. The coaches can agree on something all they want but once the AD's, Principal's and Superintendent's get together they have the final say so. That is a major problem.

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1 minute ago, Glenn said:

My proposal is to allow all the teams to play in the conference they are now in. At playoff time make a list of all teams with a minimum of 5 wins. List them according to their ADM no. Then divide them into 8 groups and let them play. It does not matter if they are 2A during the season. If their ADM nos. put them in a 3A playoff classification so be it.

I have pushed a plan like this fir years for football.  192 teams with an even percentage from each classification.  Six 32 team divisions with the teams divided by the current year ADM.  

There have been several options presented to schools mainly in 2011.  The best one was for football to align separately from all other sports and determine their own setup.  Schools were against it.

If you put a vote to the football coaches I do not think they will vote for any option that reduces the number of teams in the playoffs or less champions.

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26 minutes ago, Glenn said:

What are the current problems that were not part of even splits?

We never had BYES under the old system.

I agree.  Easy fix.  Reduce 1A and 4A to four rounds.  Remember the coaches flipped out when the state wanted four rounds.  The 48 teams was “meeting in the middle.”

Every facet of the playoffs needs an overhaul.

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15 hours ago, Cougars66 said:

I dont think it would work..to much distance between some teams.some teams would have no conf that would work without long in conf road trips unless you just stuck them in some split conf..i think for nc 4a works well with a split playoff field in football.makes for fair match ups in playoffs with out smaller teams in a division have to compete with much larger teams to win state and if im not mistaken going to a 5a would require a vote with over 300 diff reps from diff conf / schools voting this in.I just dont see this passing.

I am well aware.  There are geographical issues now with conference setups.

We are a football board.  The issue is the alignment takes in all sports.  This is why I was disappointed when the schools did not support a separate football only alignment.

Until the NCHSAA figures out the non traditional school issues 1A is going to continue to be suffer in non football sports!and that should take a back seat to changing the alignment.

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11 hours ago, Knights said:

Reduce 1a to 4 round. I could go for that. 

At what %. 10?

If it's 20 then I don't see a reason to reduce it to 4 rounds

The discussion on four rounds was referencing the current playoff setup.

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Five classifications are not is it not mute. if they don't vote to do five classifications are they just going to make a 4aa which is honestly just going to be a 5th classification but just the way to bypass the bylaws. so in the end are we not just going to end up in the same situation with five classifications whether it's an honest name or a bypass name

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On 11/29/2019 at 8:40 PM, amaidendevil said:

Five classifications are not is it not mute. if they don't vote to do five classifications are they just going to make a 4aa which is honestly just going to be a 5th classification but just the way to bypass the bylaws. so in the end are we not just going to end up in the same situation with five classifications whether it's an honest name or a bypass name

Don't think that will happen.  We may find out more info this Wednesday at the Board of Directors meeting.

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1 hour ago, btango said:

Don't think that will happen.  We may find out more info this Wednesday at the Board of Directors meeting.

N.C. High School Athletic Association Commissioner Que Tucker announced at the association's annual meeting on Thursday that the association is delaying the realignment process by one year in order to pursue a fifth class.

During an address to the membership, Tucker said the board of directors will work on plans that includes 1A, 2A, 3A, 4A and 4AA classes. Right now, the board cannot work on a 5A class because the bylaws require the association operate with four classes. The 4AA class would be a subdivision of the 4A class. This was what I was drawing my assumption on. I really don't know, kinda reading through lines.

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31 minutes ago, amaidendevil said:

N.C. High School Athletic Association Commissioner Que Tucker announced at the association's annual meeting on Thursday that the association is delaying the realignment process by one year in order to pursue a fifth class.

During an address to the membership, Tucker said the board of directors will work on plans that includes 1A, 2A, 3A, 4A and 4AA classes. Right now, the board cannot work on a 5A class because the bylaws require the association operate with four classes. The 4AA class would be a subdivision of the 4A class. This was what I was drawing my assumption on. I really don't know, kinda reading through lines.

I think they may have been using that as a work around.  If they have four even classes and then split four (4A and 4AA) that is not going to work for 1A. 

I expect it to be four classes and remain as it is with an uneven allotment of teams (12.5 x 2, 25 x 3) or some form of five classifications.  If it remains four classifications  but with an even amount of football schools per classification I expect there will be some type of split in the 1A and 4A classes for all sports.  This is for two reasons: (1) the difference between the ADMs from largest to smallest and (2) the non traditional school issue in 1A.

Hopefully we will hear get some insight into what are some of the potential breakdowns.

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I read this as well but still say that it would really surprise me it that happened because it would not solve the problem. The only thing to me that would solve the problem would be to go back to the 25-25-25-25 system. What we are doing now is ridiculous. It created the first round byes we now have which I hate. BUT, as I have always said, I am never surprised at what the NCHSAA does. Most of the things they do as far as I am concerned benefit themselves more than they benefit the players. Th Endowment Game is a prime example. They were very much against an extra game (which we coaches advocated for many years back in the day) until they decided that they could make a lot of money off this game. They added this game and tried to tell us it was a new idea that originated with them.

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The first round bye is as much on the coaches.  The plan was four rounds initially but the 1A coaches flipped out.  In my opinion, it would have been more beneficial to their athletic programs and in general in several ways.

The football playoff byes is a minor issue considering the overall aspect of realignment and the fact the byes can go away.

Personally, the whole playoff system needs to be overhauled!

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Why is this so difficult? It's not brain surgery and it is done all across America.

Divide the schools up by 5 . Eliminate the AA. Eliminate byes. Eliminate split conferences. Forget East/West. Suck it up and play ball.

 

22 hours ago, btango said:

The first round bye is as much on the coaches.  The plan was four rounds initially but the 1A coaches flipped out.  In my opinion, it would have been more beneficial to their athletic programs and in general in several ways.

The football playoff byes is a minor issue considering the overall aspect of realignment and the fact the byes can go away.

Personally, the whole playoff system needs to be overhauled!

 

 

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5 hours ago, Fumblerooski said:

Why is this so difficult? It's not brain surgery and it is done all across America.

Divide the schools up by 5 . Eliminate the AA. Eliminate byes. Eliminate split conferences. Forget East/West. Suck it up and play ball.

If you could just say, "here it is," that would be great to me but not a lot of schools who must vote on this.  

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7 hours ago, Steelers71 said:

So is the realignment postponed until next year at this time? Doesn't that mean 2 more years in current conference and class?

2021 football season the next alignment will be in place if they continue on the four year cycle which is what has been announced.  The timing makes me wonder if they are testing the timeline for a plan on two year realignment periods in the future.

Expect we may here more Wednesday after the Board of Directors meetings.

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41 minutes ago, rville20 said:

It seems to me they always seem to hurt the small schools with any decision they make.

Give some specifics.

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13 minutes ago, btango said:

Give some specifics.

Having to compete with the charters and private schools, making us play schools twice our size, letting the ec scam happen to add even bigger schools into the 1a. I realize the ec scam effects the bigger schools also, but the effects aren't as drastic on the bigger programs because they have a sizeable student body to compete with. Lets use Robbinsville as an example, last year we were beat in the team wrestling duel state finals by one of the charter schools, and we have to compete in football almost every year with schools with an ec program which drops their adm's to the 1a level 

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I agree with you on the charters.  Let’s not exclude urban magnets and the private school.  I would go further and list schools that allow athletes that live outside the school’s geographical district participate in sports.  
 

Playing schools twice your size.  The setup now is about as low as I would want to see the number of football playing schools.  With four classes go to 15% or 550 ADM.  With that I would no longer want subdivided playoffs.  

EC is much more debatable.  Students are not in campus and if they are not allowed to play there is an argument.  What about the 1A football power that has a local charter school that brought their numbers below 2A.  Are you going to make them count their district students that go to the charter?  
Let’s remember, 1A wanted subdivided playoffs, the pod system, less teams in the classification, et al and they got that.

The issue with charters originates most likely with the representative that your neighbors elect.

With that said, the 1A schools are too concerned about screwing each other that they cannot get together on any thing.  May be when two charters win the 1A state football championships they will put the student things aside.

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8 minutes ago, btango said:

I agree with you on the charters.  Let’s not exclude urban charters and the private school.  I would go further and list schools that allow athletes that live outside the school’s geographical district participate in sports.  
 

Playing schools twice your size.  The setup now is about as low as I would want to see the number of football playing schools.  With four classes go to 15% or 550 ADM.  With that I would no longer want subdivided playoffs.  

EC is much more debatable.  Students are not in campus and if they are not allowed to play there is an argument.  What about the 1A football power that has a local charter school that brought their numbers below 2A.  Are you going to make them count their district students that go to the charter?  
Let’s remember, 1A wanted subdivided playoffs, the pod system, less teams in the classification, et al and they got that.

The issue with charters originates most likely with the representative that your neighbors elect.

With that said, the 1A schools are too concerned about screwing each other that they cannot get together on any thing.  May be when two charters win the 1A state football championships they will put the student things aside.

At 550 that has Rville playing schools with 200 more kids, I think our number this 370 ish, is that an equal playing field. Something needs to be done with the ec scam, look at Tarboro they haven't lost a game since they started the ec and dropped to 1AA, they were at 512 this year, they are going to drop into 1a soon according to their adm's but they haven't lost one football player to the ec school since it started. Not one of their football players transfers to the ec.

What the ec program is doing is segregating our schools, and I'm not talking a black and white thing, I talking about athletes vs non athletes.  

As far as the 1a and the subdivided playoffs, it started out as a way to equal the playing field according to the student bodies in the schools, but this is what led to the ec scam. 

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