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Chris Hughes

Tuscola appeal to be heard tomorrow

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The members of the NCHSAA will hear and vote on Tuscola's appeal to move down from 3A to 2A at the association's annual meetings held in Chapel Hill.  Both parties have stated their cases and made their points, and now it will be up to the schools to vote.  My question is this however, if the Haywood County Schools don't win the appeal, will they try to take it further with legal action or push state legislators to do something?

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I hope they do get to move down because their numbers place them in 2A classification.  However, I definitely do not want to see the court system or the legislative system get involved in our matters. Doing that will open up a huge can of worms.

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There is a precedent for Congress making mandates in the 1A conference out East with Cape Hatteras, Columbia, Matamuskeet, Creswell, etc.

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53 minutes ago, dkj said:

There is a precedent for Congress making mandates in the 1A conference out East with Cape Hatteras, Columbia, Matamuskeet, Creswell, etc.

The legislature changed the conferences and did not even notify the NCHSAA.  It was helpful for those schools but the the ripple effect hurt some others which were strongly against it.  That is what many of the folks looking in from outside the process do not understand.  Moving one or two schools may be devastating to many other schools.

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Eleven schools requested to be dropped a classification.  Six were approved and five denied.  One school with a larger enrollment than Tuscola was approved.  North Forsyth lost nearly 250 students and 20% of the total enrollment from 2015 through 2019.  The numbers show them losing more with future classes but the big issues in that situation is Forsyth County(!!).

The NCHSAA has polled schools about going to a two year alignment and the responses are about half and half.  Some schools think two years keeps things like this from happening or the opposite where a school considerably outgrows their current classification.  Others favor continuity and a longer set window for planning.  For the most part the schools do not seem to favor major changes.

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It was denied, the 10% rule a is a joke. Well, maybe North Forsyth had a case but anyone with less than a thousand should have been allowed to move down. I am glad Burns was allowed to move down. We had a good case, but so did Tuscola. I am with you Chris. 

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4 hours ago, dkj said:

There is a precedent for Congress making mandates in the 1A conference out East with Cape Hatteras, Columbia, Matamuskeet, Creswell, etc.

OK. I never knew that. You may have gathered that I am not a huge fan of the NCHSAA so I guess there is a need for legal action if you want to get them to listen to you. I do not understand how Rockingham County and McMichael can be realigned to 2A and those other schools between them and Hickory High School do not get realigned to 2A unless they want to stay in 3A because of travel. 

McMichael High 1051

Morehead High 1044 

White Oak High 1044   

Eastern Wayne High 1041            

Tuscola High 1037

Cramer High 1035

Hickory High 1031

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Glenn, your #'s are old. Those were the numbers from the 2014-15 school year that were used to create the current realignment.  Also, it was actually Morehead and McMichael not RC and McMichael that were allowed to move. 

If you live in the area you know Eden in particular has taken a lot of hits to it's economy. Miller leaving town was the last big blow.  Morehead's enrollment today is around 750.  In fact, a freind I know with a son there said they presented evidence to the NCHSAA in December that there were over 20 schools that made the 2A playoffs this past year with enrollments greater than theirs.  McMichael's enrollment is still in the 800's but they too are way under what they were four years ago.  RCS had a study done that shows enrollments at all four schools will continue to drop over the next five years.

The NCHSAA decision to allow the schools above to play down is only for post season.  It was determined that allowing a complete move to 2A (like N forsyth) would be too disruptive to the conference.  Also, it's my understanding that both Morehead and McMichael were seeking to be admitted to the Mid State 2A. Outside of Reidsville and Bartlett Yancey none of the other schools in the conference wanted them in so the NCHSAA struck a compromise. The Mid State 3a will be a split league for the remainder of this realignment with MHS & McM being the 2A teams and everyone else remaining 3A.

I would add that if the study done by RCS is correct and all enrollments in the county continue to drop you could see RC joining Morehead and McMichael in 2A next realignment.  Reidsville is possibly headed to 1A. Whether or not the state decides to go back to 25-25-25-25 will have some impact on this occurring.  

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I had RC and was going to change it to Morehead and forgot to.  My preference is that they do go back to the 25-25-25-25 formula. Year before last we were in the final 4 in the east. We were the only legit 3A school of the 4. The other 3 were 4A the year before. I agree with Chris in that a 2 year realign is the way to go. It is the only way to make sure we do not have the enrollment mess we now have. I was in VA for 2 years and they use a 2 year realignment and they have no problems. The negatives are not present from what I experienced.  

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I wonder why they only received so few votes. 44 out of 110. Wow. Were there 110 schools represented. I know for a fact that the NCHSAA counts the non votes from schools not there as No Votes. To me this is a stupid rule. To count them as YES votes would be wrong as well. Just do not count them and make the decision based the votes of the people who attend. If there are complaints from those people who did not attend, the simple answer is If You Wanted To Vote You Should Have Been At The Meeting, So Sit Down And Shut Up! Another point is according to the 2018 ADM nos. Pisgah has 16 more students than does Tuscola and Pisgah is 2A. This is another major problem that needs to be addressed because it occurs in all classifications. Going to a 2 year realignment would correct this problem.

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5 hours ago, Glenn said:

I wonder why they only received so few votes. 44 out of 110. Wow. Were there 110 schools represented. I know for a fact that the NCHSAA counts the non votes from schools not there as No Votes. 

Incorrect on this vote.  The only votes that were counted were the ones actually cast.  110 schools voted and those were the only ones that were counted either way in the tabulation.  In order to have “won” the vote Tuscola needed 72 schools voting for them out of the 110.

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2 year realign is the way to go. So much ebb and flow with numbers for some schools that after 4 years there is a huge difference.

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Incorrect on this vote. 

I did not say this was the case on this vote. I asked the question If All 110 Schools were represented and voted.  2 year realignments would go a long way in correcting enrollment number problems when it comes to classification issues.

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3 hours ago, Glenn said:

Incorrect on this vote. 

I did not say this was the case on this vote. I asked the question If All 110 Schools were represented and voted.  2 year realignments would go a long way in correcting enrollment number problems when it comes to classification issues.

My response was to your last sentence, “I know for a fact that the NCHSAA counts the non votes from schools not there aNo Votes.“

The vote on Tuscola was for schools in attendance that wished to cast a vote.  I was told by one school rep in attendance that he would not vote as he did not feel he understood the issue as thoroughly as he would like in order to place a vote.

I agree with you on the two year realignment.  Surprising more schools do not.

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Hopefully Tuscola will be 2A the next realignment. Pisgah has more kids than does Tuscola. The problem is every time there is a new realignment there are schools in every classification who have less ADM nos. than many schools in the classification below them. Unless these schools request this because of problems with travel, then this should not happen. Hopefully a 5 classification will help alleviate this.

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If 1A has around fifty schools the largest enrollment for 2A and 3A would decrease.  Also, with 25% of the schools in 2A and 3A and not the 30% on the current alignment it would also decrease their largest number.  

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Anyone know if they may be looking into realignment every 2 years. To me that would be the thing to do as well unless I’m not  seeing it  right. 

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Vik-Val 86. Believe it or not but this would solve a lot of problems. When I was in VA several years back this is what they did and there were zero problems associated with this system. It worked well.

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btango. If 1A has around fifty schools the largest enrollment for 2A and 3A would decrease.  Also, with 25% of the schools in 2A and 3A and not the 30% on the current alignment it would also decrease their largest number.  

As long as they use the current ADM nos. and split it up into 4 (now it looks like 5) equal classifications every classification would have the same no. of schools. I know we do not live in a perfect world and there would have to be adjustments made (things like no 2A schools close to a particular school which would require this particular school to be in a 1A 0r 3A conference) but it would be better than what we now have as far as problems go. 

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11 minutes ago, Glenn said:

As long as they use the current ADM nos. and split it up into 4 (now it looks like 5) equal classifications every classification would have the same no. of schools. I know we do not live in a perfect world and there would have to be adjustments made (things like no 2A schools close to a particular school which would require this particular school to be in a 1A 0r 3A conference) but it would be better than what we now have as far as problems go. 

I think the goal is five and the main reason is due to the disparity of the enrollment numbers in 1A and the current 4A.  That is why I do not expect to see five classifications with the same amount of schools.  1A and 4A will very likely be half the number that 2A-4A will have.  This is where the subdivided playoffs come in for those three classifications and keeping the championships at eight.  I would love to see five classes of 20% of the schools each and have five football titles but that is not seen as equitable enrollment wise.

This thing will probably change numerous times and once decided on the set  up there will be numerous tweaks.  I think by going to five classes there will be less complaining about split conferences which has always been a major complaint.  Look for 1A and 5A to have several members in split conferences.

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2 hours ago, Glenn said:

Vik-Val 86. Believe it or not but this would solve a lot of problems. When I was in VA several years back this is what they did and there were zero problems associated with this system. It worked well.

SC does 2 year realignment as well but many year nothing changes n sometimes 1-2 team leave but also SC uses a Point System for their playoffs n Many time in SC u face a Similar Conference opponent bc I believe some of playoff stuff is already Pre-Determined like location n such 

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BlueDevilsBiggest Fan. It seems that the schools in NC for some reason change in ADM nos. a lot. One reason is because of all the new schools being built every few years. Plus the fact that the population of NC is more than twice that of SC which means that they need twice as many schools. This also means twice as many problems.  Probably twice as many headaches.

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So does this 5A proposal mean that Tuscola now has to spend an additional year in 3A beyond the two they are stuck with?  My understanding is they project their number for next fall to be 920 or so.

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Mongol, I have learned when it comes to the NCHSAA to never say something is going to happen. Having said that, they have a great case since Morehead and McMichael was granted that courtesy Tuscola should get the same treatment. But, the truth probably is that they are stuck where they are until the next realignment.

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1 hour ago, MongolGuru said:

So does this 5A proposal mean that Tuscola now has to spend an additional year in 3A beyond the two they are stuck with?  My understanding is they project their number for next fall to be 920 or so.

No.  The realignment years will be the same but the NCHSAA and Board of Directors will not start working on the process until next school year including using those ADMs.  In the past they would have started this spring using this year’s ADMs.  I think this is actually much better. Just condense the time frame with more focus instead of dragging it out.

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I am as well. Now if we can get the people who think they matter most(AD's, Principals, Superintendents, NCHSAA members)  to agree we may get to this.

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Regarding a two year alignment period the NCHSAA stated they were open to it and went to the schools for ideas.  They expected the schools to be for it but were surprised that there was a lot of pushback.  Continuity, building rivalries, familiarity were all noted.  As I have written several times schools talk about change but just do not want to go into the unknown.

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The one thing Tuscola and our school system has learned is who their friends are and who is not.  What spurred this vote of the membership was the administration had received commitments from certain school's members on the board and then when the actual vote was taken, the request was voted down 15-0 so some folks lied or "changed their mind" about their vote.

 

 

 

 

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Regarding a two year alignment period the NCHSAA stated they were open to it and went to the schools for ideas.  They expected the schools to be for it but were surprised that there was a lot of pushback.  Continuity, building rivalries, familiarity were all noted.  As I have written several times schools talk about change but just do not want to go into the unknown.

These reasons why not to make a change make zero  sense. The fact is it has absolutely nothing to do with keeping games you want to play every year. It has everything to do with teams whose ADM nos. change dramatically to ensure everybody is equal. Those issues were never issues when I was coaching in VA where the 2 year realignment process is used.

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10 minutes ago, Glenn said:

Regarding a two year alignment period the NCHSAA stated they were open to it and went to the schools for ideas.  They expected the schools to be for it but were surprised that there was a lot of pushback.  Continuity, building rivalries, familiarity were all noted.  As I have written several times schools talk about change but just do not want to go into the unknown.

These reasons why not to make a change make zero  sense. The fact is it has absolutely nothing to do with keeping games you want to play every year. It has everything to do with teams whose ADM nos. change dramatically to ensure everybody is equal. Those issues were never issues when I was coaching in VA where the 2 year realignment process is used.

I'm with you, Glenn.  I like the idea of a two year alignment.  If they stay with four classifications and are the four year alignment I think it is time to see a drastic overhaul of the playoffs were they look at some type of division set up where your classification does determine the division you play in but your current ADM does.  Also, that would be the perfect scenario to look at six football champions.

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