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Way Too Early Discussion of 2021 Realignment

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With the possibility of North Rowan closing. I'd like to see a Yadkin Valley that looked like this with divisions to try and reduce travel:

 

West

Albemarle

North Stanly

South Stanly

South Davidson

 

East

Chatham Central

Chatham Charter

North Moore

Uwharrie Charter

 

 

For everything but football of course,

 

Play within division three times for 9 conference games and play across divisions once, alternating site each year to add 3 more conference games, which would make a total of 12 conference games.

 

Then for conference tournament play across divisions

E#1 vs. W #4

E#2 vs.  W#3

W#1 vs. E#4

W#2 vs. E#3

 

Then re-seed in second round based on overall standings and play it out from there.  

 

Just a thought.

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18 hours ago, LarryRandolph said:

With the possibility of North Rowan closing. I'd like to see a Yadkin Valley that looked like this with divisions to try and reduce travel:

 

West

Albemarle

North Stanly

South Stanly

South Davidson

 

East

Chatham Central

Chatham Charter

North Moore

Uwharrie Charter

 

 

For everything but football of course,

 

Play within division three times for 9 conference games and play across divisions once, alternating site each year to add 3 more conference games, which would make a total of 12 conference games.

 

Then for conference tournament play across divisions

E#1 vs. W #4

E#2 vs.  W#3

W#1 vs. E#4

W#2 vs. E#3

 

Then re-seed in second round based on overall standings and play it out from there.  

 

Just a thought.

Chatham Central will try to move to the Yadkin Valley for all sports and get out of that charter league for sports other than football.

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1 hour ago, RD28327 said:

Chatham Central will try to move to the Yadkin Valley for all sports and get out of that charter league for sports other than football.

Makes some sense from their perspective.  Doubt many of those Charter schools have JV teams in many sports.

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21 hours ago, smashmouth5 said:

Burns is moving to 2A next year.  Great news for them.  

Yep I did not expect us to appeal to move down early but I’m glad we did. We will be in the Southwestern 2A.

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Why not do it like this?

 

1A=up to 500 students.

2A=501-1000

3A=1001-1500

4A=1501 and up 

 

Depending on sport, bracket could be different.

No more subdividing.

 Top 50% make playoffs using the current seeding criteria and round up to next even number.

So for 1A you have,  for example,  94 baseball playing teams so 94*.50=47.

47 teams get in, round up to nearest even number and you get 48.

Say for football you have only 68 teams that play football, 68*.50=34.

34 get in and bracket and apply byes as needed, so two 17 team brackets, in this case the 17/16 could do a play in game.

 

It should be based on top half in each sport get in.

 

I needs to mean something to make the playoffs.  

 

 

And maybe, only top 40% making play offs.  

 

I would even favor pre-determined sites like it used to be for everything but football.

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, LarryRandolph said:

Why not do it like this?

1A=up to 500 students.

2A=501-1000

3A=1001-1500

4A=1501 and up 

Depending on sport, bracket could be different.

No more subdividing.

 Top 50% make playoffs using the current seeding criteria and round up to next even number.

So for 1A you have,  for example,  94 baseball playing teams so 94*.50=47.

47 teams get in, round up to nearest even number and you get 48.

Say for football you have only 68 teams that play football, 68*.50=34.

34 get in and bracket and apply byes as needed, so two 17 team brackets, in this case the 17/16 could do a play in game.

It should be based on top half in each sport get in.

I needs to mean something to make the playoffs.  

And maybe, only top 40% making play offs.  

I would even favor pre-determined sites like it used to be for everything but football.

Based on these numbers about 40 football playing schools in 1A.  About 105 in 4A.

Do not like byes in football and definitely there will not be play off game holding up the season a week for a couple of teams to get in the playoffs.

I totally agree making the playoffs should be earned based on regular season performance which not only means the best record but who the opponent is, also.  

Predetermined sites would be ok with me but never should they go back to predetermined playoffs slots which was a big argument for more playoff teams and subdividing.

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48 minutes ago, LarryRandolph said:

All good points.

We could also look at moving to 5 classifications, rather than 4.  That might help some of the issues.

It may do the reverse.  It has been looked st fir every realignment since the 1990’s an will be on the table fir this upcoming one..  Sounds good until you see it mapped out.  

This option was presented to the schools four years ago as a potential setup for the current alignment.  At all eight region meetings one of, if not the first question was, “will we still subdivide football?!?”  

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4 hours ago, btango said:

It may do the reverse.  It has been looked st fir every realignment since the 1990’s an will be on the table fir this upcoming one..  Sounds good until you see it mapped out.  

This option was presented to the schools four years ago as a potential setup for the current alignment.  At all eight region meetings one of, if not the first question was, “will we still subdivide football?!?”  

I think if you went to five classifications, we should not subdivide.

 

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3 hours ago, LarryRandolph said:

I think if you went to five classifications, we should not subdivide.

 

I agree!  Get the football coaches to accept that.

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23 minutes ago, football101 said:

Keep it 4 classes. take 48 teams to playoffs and sub divide into 6 classes or divisions , all sports.

The following has always been my plan:

Six divisions of 32 teams.  Each class represented equally by same percentage of teams in each class.

D1 largest 32 teams.  D6 smallest 32.  Classification has nothing to do with division a team is placed only their enrollment that year.

Five rounds. No byes.  Six champions.

i like four classes for non football due to the competitiveness and teams from the smaller half of the class seem to compete well.  1A needs to be reviewed.  “Traditional” school needs to be defined.

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21 minutes ago, football101 said:

I'm fine with that ! I like 48  teams, 6 champions because 64 is to many. I like going on each years enrollment so no team gains an advantage due to new lines or opening of new schools.

48 teams requires byes.  Get away from that!

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Travel isnt an issue in football.  I'm all for football only leagues. In our league, South Brunswick has 1050 students and Laney has 2200.  Why on earth are they in the same conference?

Football only leagues would allow them to go play like-minded schools (South Columbus, St. Pauls, other borderline 2AA/3A teams.) West, New Hanover, and Topsail should be playing the schools in either Jacksonville or Fayetteville who are around 1300 to 1600.  

We already have to play Lumberton and Cary out of conference because the Three Rivers has 10 games and none of us can schedule them, it would also open us up to play the Wilmington schools out of conference.. Believe it or not.....WE WOULD SAVE money in a league where we go to Fayetteville three times a year.  

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They'll never agree to reducing the playoffs.  

With 8 state champions we have a champion for about 1 in every 75 schools.  Its already more difficult to win a state championship in North Carolina then SC, GA, and Florida based on those numbers.

With our enrollment discrepancies in the four class system, I could make the argument we should have more state champions.   

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1 hour ago, TrojanCoachWBHS said:

They'll never agree to reducing the playoffs.  

With 8 state champions we have a champion for about 1 in every 75 schools.  Its already more difficult to win a state championship in North Carolina then SC, GA, and Florida based on those numbers.

With our enrollment discrepancies in the four class system, I could make the argument we should have more state champions.   

Your numbers are incorrect.  There is a state champion in football for every 47 schools that field a team.  SC is 44 schools.  GA has a football champion for about every 55 schools.  The discrepancy in enrollment in both of those states would rival NC.

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5 minutes ago, btango said:

Your numbers are incorrect.  There is a state champion in football for every 47 schools that field a team.  SC is 44 schools.  GA has a football champion for about every 55 schools.  The discrepancy in enrollment in both of those states would rival NC.

I do think that number gets skewed a little bit with the 20/30/30/20 rule.  With 2A's and 3'a, you are essentially competing with 60 other schools. In 1A and 4A, you are competing with about 40.  

 

I believe we should have a class system where it is pretty equitable across the board in terms of playoff percentages and the state champions.  Only way to do this is classification alterations.

 

6 Classes with subdividing the highest and lowest class would work as well.  The thought of them decreasing their cash cow just isnt going to happen.  

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2 hours ago, TrojanCoachWBHS said:

I do think that number gets skewed a little bit with the 20/30/30/20 rule.  With 2A's and 3'a, you are essentially competing with 60 other schools. In 1A and 4A, you are competing with about 40.  

 

I believe we should have a class system where it is pretty equitable across the board in terms of playoff percentages and the state champions.  Only way to do this is classification alterations.

 

6 Classes with subdividing the highest and lowest class would work as well.  The thought of them decreasing their cash cow just isnt going to happen.  

Lets discuss who really wants eight playoff champions.

Subdividing football started in 2001 with 1A.  A group of eastern 1A coaches pushed for this due to the then much larger 1A enrollment cutoff.  The following season all three classes went to subdividing.

During the last realignment plannng period the NCHSAA had options for discussion at all eight region meetings.  Four years ago this coming spring.  Several options were present and discussed.  Three classifications subdividing team sports to six champions.  Five six class option.  Current four classification with different number of teams in the classes which is somewhat where it ended up.

When the five classification option was mentioned one of the very first questions asked (and it was at all eight meetings!) was would football still be subdivided.  The NCHSAA thought was no.  The schools waffled about it not being subdivided.

In recent years the NCHSAA requested 1A schools to go to 32 total teams in the playoffs.  Two 16 teams brackets finishing a week before the other three classifications.  Last year 1A and 4A were both requested to go to four rounds of 32 teams subdivided.  Finish the week before the 2A and 3A.

The NCHSAA is not who would fight to keep subdividing / eight champions.  It is the schools and in particular the coaches. 

For the record, I am not for four state champions.  I would like to see six.  I have shown the plan in the past.  That is one state title for every 63 schools.  Currently it is every 47 schools.  It would allow for five round playoffs and 196 teams making the playoffs.

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On 11/15/2018 at 2:26 PM, SPRaiders78 said:

Just put the Charter Schools in their own classification like the privates. That would take care of a lot of the problems right there. 

I'm in favor of school choice. If your kid is in a school that is underachieving and full of trouble, I think if there are alternatives you should be able to take advantage of them. I don't however believe those Charter and Private schools should be viewed the same especially in sports. Let parents choose which is more important to them. Of course my wife who taught for 25 years in NC Public schools disagrees with me completely.  She tells me it is just another form of segregation. I don't see it that way but old conservative white men see the world very different than the rest of society.

Definitely Charters are the legislators method of segregation. Backed for the urban areas of the state such as Charlotte, Greensboro, and Raleigh metro areas.

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On 12/13/2018 at 10:16 AM, btango said:

Your numbers are incorrect.  There is a state champion in football for every 47 schools that field a team.  SC is 44 schools.  GA has a football champion for about every 55 schools.  The discrepancy in enrollment in both of those states would rival NC.

When you count ALL schools and do 6 champions you roughly have 1 champion per 69.5 schools.  My math may be off a little but I counted 417 total schools. If you chose to do 8 state champions your number per state champion is 1 for every 52.125 schools which is basically in the middle of what SC and GA do, not that we have to compare ourselves with them cause we sure don't pay like they do but that is a good point of reference.

 If you chose to do 1 32 team bracket (16 west/16 east) per classification you get 46% of the teams making the playoffs with 6 brackets while you get 61.4% of the teams making the playoffs with 8 brackets.  Currently 63% of the teams make the playoffs in 1A/4A football while 56.6% of the teams make it in the playoffs.  So to keep your percentages closer to what you already got 8 classifications is the better model.

The KEY in ALL of this if and when there ever will be a change is convincing out leaders in Chapel Hill that the is better for ALL schools and most importantly ALL sports.  You got to think like they think. The 8 classification model gets the same number of teams in the playoffs equally among all classifications.  No school can complain saying it is easier to make the playoffs depending upon what classification you are in.  The state not only gets 8 state champions in football but now would get 8 state champions in all sports, this means more $$$ for the state which they don't need but would be a convincing factor in getting things switch.  

The only factor i see as a hurdle is of the 417 schools only 378 play football.  This means 39 schools do not play football.  Again, my math could be off on counting but i feel i am fairly close. I did an 8 classification model, of football schools only, and shared it on the coaches corner blog under 5 classification alignment if you care to look at it.  If you take all 417 schools your and break them down evenly you 1A classification, 28 schools would not play football.  This leaves 24 teams remaining that play football.  To make your math, work if you are trying to keep all the classifications get the equal number of teams in the playoffs, you can allow the 1A classification to have 1 16 team bracket (8 West/8 East) which would give you 66.7% of 1A football teams making the playoffs.  In the 2A classification you would only have 41 teams that play football.  To would allow a 24 team bracket which puts 58.5% of the teams making the playoffs.  Yes, you are going to have byes and i don't think no one really likes that but if your goal is EQUALITY, which I assure you that is the goal of the NCHSAA, no one will really complain.  

So if you look at percentage of teams making the playoffs under these scenarios, 1A gets 66.7%, 2A gets 58.5% 3A-8A gets 61.4% of teams in their respected classifications making the playoffs in football.  In all other sports 61.4% make it 1A-8A.

For this to work you might have split leagues but split leagues would not as bad since the numbers are more scrunched together per classification.  Smaller conferences could help with the geographical burden some schools could face.  We already have allowed 1 5 team league so I don't see the problem with having more 5 teams leagues even if the goal is 6-8 teams

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A lot of thought out into it.

Four years ago when proposals were being made the schools were against things that were not pretty equal per class although 1A and 4A were viewed differently due to the enrollment discrepancies.  When the football being separated and aligned differently from other schools was presented it was described as too complicated.  I expect this would get much the same look.

I can assure you the NCHSAA does not want to go to eight classes and eight state titles in all sports.  The competition level is strong in most sports.  I think before we see eight that they would need a few runs with five or six classes.  

I do think NC needs to get outside the box this alignment but I do not expect eight classifications would have much support from the admin or schools.

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6 hours ago, btango said:

A lot of thought out into it.

Four years ago when proposals were being made the schools were against things that were not pretty equal per class although 1A and 4A were viewed differently due to the enrollment discrepancies.  When the football being separated and aligned differently from other schools was presented it was described as too complicated.  I expect this would get much the same look.

I can assure you the NCHSAA does not want to go to eight classes and eight state titles in all sports.  The competition level is strong in most sports.  I think before we see eight that they would need a few runs with five or six classes.  

I do think NC needs to get outside the box this alignment but I do not expect eight classifications would have much support from the admin or schools.

How can you be so sure they don't want 8 IF there are 8 classifications?  The baseball and softball coaches have already been sent questionaries to gain their feedback to see if they would like split classification championships like football does.  That tells me that there are sports that are asking about it and putting a little heat to them.  Regardless of how the coaches want to do it, if the NCHSAA wants to they will. Before the 20/30/30/20 model was put into place the NCHSAA wanted feed back from the AD's and the regional meetings.  My region, region 2, was OPPOSED to the idea but we see what happened.   The state sees it as a money maker for state playoffs gates and let me assure you they did not get 36 MILLION in the endowment by not trying to find ways to make money.     

Will we go 8 for the next realignment...NO.  I will be happy with 25% for all classifications.  I just am very passionate when it comes to making things better even if it means rocking the boat on some issues. 

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4 hours ago, Dawg Dynasty said:

How can you be so sure they don't want 8 IF there are 8 classifications?  The baseball and softball coaches have already been sent questionaries to gain their feedback to see if they would like split classification championships like football does.  That tells me that there are sports that are asking about it and putting a little heat to them.  Regardless of how the coaches want to do it, if the NCHSAA wants to they will. Before the 20/30/30/20 model was put into place the NCHSAA wanted feed back from the AD's and the regional meetings.  My region, region 2, was OPPOSED to the idea but we see what happened.   The state sees it as a money maker for state playoffs gates and let me assure you they did not get 36 MILLION in the endowment by not trying to find ways to make money.     

Will we go 8 for the next realignment...NO.  I will be happy with 25% for all classifications.  I just am very passionate when it comes to making things better even if it means rocking the boat on some issues. 

The schools were flipping out when the three subdivided to six option was presented.  Eight classifications.  Why not subdivide the eight.  Think that sounds crazy?  During last alignment some 1A coaches made a suggestion that their classification should be subdivided into three subclasses for football.  

The baseball coaches think if they subdivide they can then play three game series in the playoffs in earlier rounds.  Sounds great with the pitch count but a few smaller classifications do not like the three game series as much due to lack of numbers.  Just like with the football coaches it is hard to get a consensus.  There are some logistical issues with three game playoffs that would need to be reviewed, also.  Go back and look at the state champions in baseball the last ten years (or five) and see  if the big / small category is not so one sided.

Expect to see all sports being subdivided put on the table possibly in the spring.  Track & field, individual wrestling, golf, tennis, cross country.  All of it.  Personally, I think individual sports should be open (1A-4A).  Track would run individual events open and relays by class.  Wrestling, individuals open and duals by class.

 

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The question always becomes what do you do with the enrollment issues that naturally exist in the lowest and highest classifications (1A and 4A) (1A and 6A) (1A and 8A)....whatever class we are talking about.

I just have a major problem with split leagues in the current format. The difference between little 3A and big 4A is enormous in sheer numbers and resources.  Im all for 6 classes and still subdividing the bottom and top classifications.  But split leagues have got to stop in football. 

Some of you naturally dont care, but playing in a league that ranges from 1000 to 2400 just isnt fun.  

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Split conferences is one of the biggest issues when aligning both fir the NCHSAA and the schools directly involved.  Going to more classes will magnify that.  The main reason the three classifications was not received well was the potential disparity in conference team enrollments although more teams would have qualified for the playoffs in non football sports.

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23 hours ago, btango said:

Split conferences is one of the biggest issues when aligning both fir the NCHSAA and the schools directly involved.  Going to more classes will magnify that.  The main reason the three classifications was not received well was the potential disparity in conference team enrollments although more teams would have qualified for the playoffs in non football sports.

Yes, but more split conferences that follow the one class up/down policy in an eight or six classification model isnt that bad.  For instance a 4A/5A league in a six classification deal isnt bad.  Youre looking at about a 600 student differences.

I could deal with being in a league that was 3AA/4A or 2AA/3A (in the current format).    Its when you get schools in the 3A to 4AA range (1000 to 2500) where its ridiculous.  

 

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I clarify by saying this.....Split Conferences in the current model is wrong.

Split conferences in a more modernized class system (more classifications) is ok as long as you keep it to one class up/one class down.  I still believe the lowest and highest classifications should never play in split leagues.  1A's cant compete with 2A's across the board  by and large.  I'm not talking about Tarboro or WRH or Murphy.....I'm talking about the typical 1A programs.  And the largest schools should be in leagues with similar resource rich programs.  So in a 6 class system (1A and 6A only leagues) Split leagues that follow one up or one down protocols is ok with me with the other classes.

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Heard odds were U.W.Harrie Charter may go 2A next realignment.  North Stanly possibly, but likely to stay 1A.

 

New YVC for next realignment will likely be

South Stanly

South Davidson

Albemarle

Chatham Central 

North Moore

North Stanly (probably stay 1A) 

The Gray Stone Day School

 

Also heard Chatham Central going back to YVC next school year.

 

 

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1 hour ago, LarryRandolph said:

Heard odds were U.W.Harrie Charter may go 2A next realignment.  North Stanly possibly, but likely to stay 1A.

 

North will be right on the cutoff I expect but think they will be in 1A.  If the next alignment takes in a larger percentage of schools to 1A (25 instead of 20) should definitely stay 1A.

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Does North Rowan staying open for operation affect Chatham Central's possible move back to the YVC for 2019-2020?  With West Montgomery leaving, perhaps they still let Chatham Central return? Anyone with info on that? 

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8 hours ago, Fumblerooski said:

Would  adding a 5th classification help? 1A-5A?

Often suggested and discussed by schools and NCHSAA but causes concern when the potential conferences are drawn up.

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