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Don Hines

FIKE AND HUNT BANNED FROM PLAYOFFS

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5 hours ago, SPRaiders78 said:

You are right sir. I'm sure I'd show my ignorance quickly. There are tons and tons about em I don't know. But an organization that is willing to give up it's decision making ability will quickly lose the conference of the people they are suppose to serve. Look at the US House of Representatives. How much confidence and trust does the country have in them? 

Decision making?  It was based on conference finish, record, and then a draw of straws.  The schools pushed for something that would show the strength of conferences and schedules.

Note in Max Preps standard poll South Point is 7th and Shelby 3rd.  If the standard poll were used I think you would be very happy with that.  Personally, I think it would be about right.  Under the drawing of straws, SP would be placed with all second place teams.  There record would then determine their spot.  With three losses they would suffer some but those three losses are to really strong teams or larger classifications schools.  The power poll was a way that teams, like Shelby and SP, that play a tough schedule were treated fairly.  The adjustment is screwing that pup.

The problem is the adjustment to Max Preps ranking.  The NCHSAA came out with the removal of the point differential due to complaints from schools (the losers, I am sure) that scores were being ran up and this was the fix.  Next year I am sure they will look at a middle ground.  

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Ok I'm an idiot, moving on from there. How many years has NC had four subdivided divisions? You would think by now they would have been able to figure out the most equitable way of deciding the playoff format. 

South Point was ranked the number two seed in 3AA west on 2016. They had four loses early in the season. Did they deserve that ranking? Heck no they didn't. There were several mountain teams that had to travrl to Belmont. They were upset and felt disrespected. Rightly so. 

The seeding process has changed every year since. This year as I stated eariler, SP on ranked 26th in one of the polls, I don't remember which. Hey they lost three games. All three to pretty good teams but they lost. But they lost three. Lucky i'd say to still be in.

When I was in school, one team from each conference made the playoffs. My senior year, 1978 SP finished 9 - 1. Losing to Shelby 42 - 7 if I remember correctly. Everybody knew win that game go to the playoffs, lose go home. I'd just like to see some consistency.

 

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btango, does the NCHSAA pay you to defend them? I ask this question because you defend them every time something negative is said about them. Do you have a free pass to sit in on all of their closed session meetings and are privy to all their discussions? You also comment on discussions made in the coaches sessions in our FB Association meetings. How are you able to get into these meetings when you are not a FB coach? I'm just curious.

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9 minutes ago, SPRaiders78 said:

Ok I'm an idiot, moving on from there. How many years has NC had four subdivided divisions? You would think by now they would have been able to figure out the most equitable way of deciding the playoff format. 

South Point was ranked the number two seed in 3AA west on 2016. They had four loses early in the season. Did they deserve that ranking? Heck no they didn't. There were several mountain teams that had to travrl to Belmont. They were upset and felt disrespected. Rightly so. 

The seeding process has changed every year since. This year as I stated eariler, SP on ranked 26th in one of the polls, I don't remember which. Hey they lost three games. All three to pretty good teams but they lost. But they lost three. Lucky i'd say to still be in.

When I was in school, one team from each conference made the playoffs. My senior year, 1978 SP finished 9 - 1. Losing to Shelby 42 - 7 if I remember correctly. Everybody knew win that game go to the playoffs, lose go home. I'd just like to see some consistency.

 

I am going to answer these in order.

Spring 2001 group of 1A coaches from smaller eastern NC schools got the NCHSAA to allow 1A to subdivide for the 2001 season.  Next season all classes subdivided.  4A AD told me that every coach was wanting it once 1A had it.  

2016 SP was in the 3A subdivide (small 3A).  They finished second in the conference.  Crest was seeded behind them because they were a two seed but lost to SP head to head.  Tuscola and Pisgah were in a three way tie for first in their split conference and were each seeded behind SP if I remember correctly.  West Rowan was seeded behind SP as they finished third in their conference.  Hibriten was the one seed as they were a conference champion.  Most of the conference champions went big 3A it appears which is what allowed SP to slide into a high seed.

SP second in the conference to one of the best 2A teams in the state.  Lost to a big SC school and a 3A NC school.  That is the goal of using a power poll.  Teams did not want to play the tougher games and teams such as SP and Shelby did not get a fair shake when compared to teams that played very inferior opposition.  

1977 was the first year of a new alignment that brough the Western NCHSAA teams into the NCHSAA.  Conference champions were guaranteed a playoff slot and a few second place teams qualified in 1A, 2A, and 4A. 

In 3A there were 16 conferences so those were the only teams that got in. 

In 2A and 4A there were less than 16 conferences so a second place team would get in from a conference on a rotating basis.  For example the District 7 2A may have been the predetermined conference to have a second place team that season so they had two teams in.  The District 7 second place team could have been the worst second place team in the state but they were guaranteed a slot due to a rotating predetermined format. 

1A had five conferences and had an eight team (three round) playoff.  Five champions and three second place teams qualified for the playoffs. 

1A only had about 35 teams in the classification that played football and around 55 total schools.  4A had about 75.  2A was right at 100.  3A had the most teams that were in a tight enrollment range and had just below 120.

 

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12 minutes ago, Glenn said:

btango, does the NCHSAA pay you to defend them? I ask this question because you defend them every time something negative is said about them. Do you have a free pass to sit in on all of their closed session meetings and are privy to all their discussions? You also comment on discussions made in the coaches sessions in our FB Association meetings. How are you able to get into these meetings when you are not a FB coach? I'm just curious.

I have never been paid a penny by anyone involved in high school sports.  I have tried to be a charitable person to some programs and have always looked at helping youth and veterans as my way to give back as I was once one of each. 

The NCHSAA is nowhere near perfect and I do not agree with many things they do.  A lot of things I do not agree with I find have valid reasons once I look at it deeper but still often think there were better alternatives.  I have spoken out against the NCHSAA many times but when I do I have the correct information and usually alternative ideas.  I have questioned two commissioners hard about issues and one commissioner very delicately.  I have volunteered my services to assist when needed.  Some meetings are closed and some are open.  When you have been around the game over the years you get to know people.  

Just to give you an idea.  The NCHSAA pushes participation.  Why do teams forfeit their playoff spot for often very minor squirmishes.  Students that have issues that may be helped in a team enviroment are more likely to be shunned.  When an eight quarter violation occurs that causes enough forfeits to end a season should it really be forfeits.  How much did that help the varsity on Friday.  I say forfeit the JV game and look at other options than missing the playoffs (head coach remains up top, head coach suspended for playoff game or more than one, school loses home games, if not enough home games their game gate cut goes to the schools they broke the eight quarter rule against).  

People write that the reason the playoffs are subdivided and so many teams make it is because the NCHSAA wants to make more money.  If that is the case why do they repeatedly offer options to the schools to lower the number of state champions and number of teams in the playoffs?  Why do they request 1A and 4A to go to four rounds of playoffs instead of five?  Do they want to make money, of course.  Do I think they sway things the way they want them to go, yes.  I think a lot of decisons they make are misunderstood.  I know a few questionable decisions made recently and possibly others coming forth are made because they are basically bullied by the legislature and their legal council to include outside law firms.  Did you know without giving the NCHSAA any notice that the NC House of Reps changed schools to new conferences one year?  

 

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btango I'm not sure how you and I got into a pissing contest. You undoubtedly have more knowledge on the NCHSAA than I do. Looking back over the thread, it seems your first response to my post comparing the NCHSAA to the NFL, you found offensive. If you disagree with my belief that they are primarily concerned with money, that is definitely your right. Like I said on a different thread about a different subject, I call em like I see em. Sometimes I don't see to good.

The things I've said on this thread are not in anyway in defense of South Point. If things work out the way some think SP will have to travel to Canton if they advance to the second round. When the season started, I thought they would be lucky to win six or seven games. I'm simply commenting on the way I see the seeding system working. If your primary goal is to prove you know more about the workings of the NCHSAA, mission accomplished.

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3 hours ago, SPRaiders78 said:

Ok I'm an idiot, moving on from there. How many years has NC had four subdivided divisions? You would think by now they would have been able to figure out the most equitable way of deciding the playoff format. 

South Point was ranked the number two seed in 3AA west on 2016. They had four loses early in the season. Did they deserve that ranking? Heck no they didn't. There were several mountain teams that had to travrl to Belmont. They were upset and felt disrespected. Rightly so. 

The seeding process has changed every year since. This year as I stated eariler, SP on ranked 26th in one of the polls, I don't remember which. Hey they lost three games. All three to pretty good teams but they lost. But they lost three. Lucky i'd say to still be in.

When I was in school, one team from each conference made the playoffs. My senior year, 1978 SP finished 9 - 1. Losing to Shelby 42 - 7 if I remember correctly. Everybody knew win that game go to the playoffs, lose go home. I'd just like to see some consistency.

 

I agree with what you are saying but I don't believe one team from each conference should be allowed in the playoffs. I mean that's terrible, I'm glad I wasn't old enough to witness those days. A team with a 7-3 or 8-2 record sat at home during the opening of the playoffs. That's not fair & very sad for so many teams who have suffered because of two or three losses.

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3 hours ago, Glenn said:

btango, does the NCHSAA pay you to defend them? I ask this question because you defend them every time something negative is said about them. Do you have a free pass to sit in on all of their closed session meetings and are privy to all their discussions? You also comment on discussions made in the coaches sessions in our FB Association meetings. How are you able to get into these meetings when you are not a FB coach? I'm just curious.

Aside from being one of my most trusted and knowledgeable advisors to what I do here at CP and essentially being like my right-hand man, btango has been involved in and around high school athletics for many decades. 

He routinely has traveled with me to games all over the state, and the nation for that matter, and is known by many high school football coaches in the state and has got the ear of many coaches and media persons alike. 

Like myself, he has been welcomed into the meetings at the NC Football Coaches Meetings in February, and he’s routinely been to NCHSAA board of directors meetings in Chapel Hill where we’ve both sat in with former commissioners Charlie Adams, Davis Whitfield, and now Que Tucker. 

In addition, he’s been very close with the Shrine Bowl and can typically be found either in the press box or on the sidelines at about every Shrine Bowl. 

He’s also been very active in the Charlotte area and has sat in on public advisory boards for CMS back in the early 2000’s. 

Other than myself, few are as tied into NC Prep Sports like btango. 

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2 hours ago, SPRaiders78 said:

btango I'm not sure how you and I got into a pissing contest. You undoubtedly have more knowledge on the NCHSAA than I do. Looking back over the thread, it seems your first response to my post comparing the NCHSAA to the NFL, you found offensive. If you disagree with my belief that they are primarily concerned with money, that is definitely your right. Like I said on a different thread about a different subject, I call em like I see em. Sometimes I don't see to good.

The things I've said on this thread are not in anyway in defense of South Point. If things work out the way some think SP will have to travel to Canton if they advance to the second round. When the season started, I thought they would be lucky to win six or seven games. I'm simply commenting on the way I see the seeding system working. If your primary goal is to prove you know more about the workings of the NCHSAA, mission accomplished.

A lot of info is put out as fact that is not but people run it on down the line as fact.  A lot of statements are opinions and repeated as facts.  

Your statement that all the NCHSAA cares about it is the money like the NFL I do not agree with.  They obviously care about the money but they could open up in a lot of ways that would bring in more money but try to keep it under some control, right or wrong.

Never take any posts on a message board personal.  It is never personal from me.  I just like the record to be set straight.

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Much appreciated, Hughes.

No issues with Glenn.  I think we both enjoy the banter.  He coaches at a quality program!  Much admiration for a guy that has worked in the game for so many years.

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I totally agree. There is no animosity toward btango or any other person on this site. We all have different opinions and we all see the facts from different perspectives. As a coach I view things as they impact my program. We all say things to get the people we are responding to a little rilled up. To get their blood  circulating a little faster early in the morning. Our coaching staff does this quite frequently every day. But, in the end we all laugh it off and go to practice as friends. We actually get a big laugh out of it. Friends can do this. the same applies here. Like I told Chris one day when he came by the school. I try to instigate conversation on his site because I want to help him keep his site alive. I also told btango that I would like to meet him when we go to the FB Coaches Association meeting in Feb. 

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33 minutes ago, Glenn said:

I totally agree. There is no animosity toward btango or any other person on this site. We all have different opinions and we all see the facts from different perspectives. As a coach I view things as they impact my program. We all say things to get the people we are responding to a little rilled up. To get their blood  circulating a little faster early in the morning. Our coaching staff does this quite frequently every day. But, in the end we all laugh it off and go to practice as friends. We actually get a big laugh out of it. Friends can do this. the same applies here. Like I told Chris one day when he came by the school. I try to instigate conversation on his site because I want to help him keep his site alive. I also told btango that I would like to meet him when we go to the FB Coaches Association meeting in Feb. 

I'll make sure you get the opportunity to meet him.  Coincidentally Glenn, I'm on the phone with your head coach as we speak! 

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The NCHSAA really shouldn’t need money. Have you seen their non profit end of year balance sheet. Damn. Never was like that when Chapel Hill ran the show and then went non profit.

Edited by GDG

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An example of the organization baffles me. Like wrestling regionals- every dime of the thousands of fans goes to the association except $1100 for expenses. That will not even pay the refs leaving lights, heat, clean up, rentals, etc.. to the home school. This is way nobody wants to host the event. Fan cost is $10 each of the three days or a weekend pass for $15. Thats a butt load of cash. Everything becomes volunteer workers and lots of mistakes get made. Hosting a wrestling regional is more work than a year of football. That allowance for a host site is pathetic.

Edited by GDG

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6 hours ago, Chris Hughes said:

All coaches do. 

Every coach and teacher in NC deserves one!

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29 minutes ago, GDG said:

An example of the organization baffles me. Like wrestling regionals- every dime of the thousands of fans goes to the association except $1100 for expenses. That will not even pay the refs leaving lights, heat, clean up, rentals, etc.. to the home school. This is way nobody wants to host the event. Fan cost is $10 each of the three days or a weekend pass for $15. Thats a butt load of cash. Everything becomes volunteer workers and lots of mistakes get made. Hosting a wrestling regional is more work than a year of football. That allowance for a host site is pathetic.

These are the things I think the coaches and ADs need to be pushing with the support of their principal and superintendent.  Every school should get together and refuse to host.  Each time the state requests a school to do it, the reply should be no due to cost and logistics.  We all know some guy will want to get the event though.

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Some of my best friends over the years have been wrestling coaches. These guys put in an absorbent amount of time. It seems that  they have a tournament every weekend. I have never seen that amount of dedication in any other sport for so little compensation. Well, except for me and that is why I deserve a huge raise. LOL.

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