Jump to content

SPRaiders78

Maxprep adjusted rankings

Recommended Posts

btango. It has always seemed to me that the NCHSAA wants to rely on each LEA to police itself. They want no part of doing this themselves. If they are to be an organization that is in control then they should be charge of doing this themselves. When I was coaching at NE Guilford, NG actively recruited several of our players. I know this for a fact. We had two players who did not qualify because they did not have a 2,0 GPA, yet they were allowed to play that fall. The principal changed their grades. Guilford County Schools eventually fired several coaches and did not allow several players to play but the system decided to not look into that situation because they thought that they had been punished enough. Had they continued with the investigation they would have found other violations. That year the place was a mess. The term the buck stops at the top was not in force in FB. The head man was never held accountable. If the NCHSAA had any guts they would have handled this from the start. From that point on I lost all confidence in them as an organization. The people who work there are paid well, so why should they not be a policing agency and earn their money. They want you to think they have a lot of power but the truth is they do not really want to get in the middle of policing their member schools. That would require too much work. I also know for a fact that they decided to stay 25-25-25-25 but when the coaches left they changed it to its present screwed up form we are stuck with today. The same system that allowed S. Caldwell (with a losing record) to be a #1 seed and get a 1st round bye. As a long time FB coach I feel like we coaches seldom have our voices heard. We put in all the time and do all the work but the AD's, principals, superintendents, and NCHSAA Board members make all the rules for us. Too many other things but that would require me writing a book. I expect more from them than what we get. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a contradiction between Max Preps and the NCHSAA bylaws. The MP power rating is based on strength of schedule but a team is penalized when they play a team that is much better than them and they lose. They also give a team a higher power rating when they score a lot of points against a team. This part is where the NCHSAA Bylaws comes into play because there is a section that deals with sportsmanship and beating someone 99-0 violates this sportsmanship code. The NCHSAA either needs to take the sportsmanship part out or get rid of Max Preps. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But, like I have always said, The Only Poll That Matters Is The Championship Poll The Middle Of December. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Glenn said:

There is a contradiction between Max Preps and the NCHSAA bylaws. The MP power rating is based on strength of schedule but a team is penalized when they play a team that is much better than them and they lose. They also give a team a higher power rating when they score a lot of points against a team. This part is where the NCHSAA Bylaws comes into play because there is a section that deals with sportsmanship and beating someone 99-0 violates this sportsmanship code. The NCHSAA either needs to take the sportsmanship part out or get rid of Max Preps. 

An easy tweak is to make the point differential a maximum of 21 points.  I think that would satisfy both parties.  It will be brought up in about three weeks in Chapel Hill.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Glenn said:

btango. It has always seemed to me that the NCHSAA wants to rely on each LEA to police itself. They want no part of doing this themselves. If they are to be an organization that is in control then they should be charge of doing this themselves. When I was coaching at NE Guilford, NG actively recruited several of our players. I know this for a fact. We had two players who did not qualify because they did not have a 2,0 GPA, yet they were allowed to play that fall. The principal changed their grades. Guilford County Schools eventually fired several coaches and did not allow several players to play but the system decided to not look into that situation because they thought that they had been punished enough. Had they continued with the investigation they would have found other violations. That year the place was a mess. The term the buck stops at the top was not in force in FB. The head man was never held accountable. If the NCHSAA had any guts they would have handled this from the start. From that point on I lost all confidence in them as an organization. The people who work there are paid well, so why should they not be a policing agency and earn their money. They want you to think they have a lot of power but the truth is they do not really want to get in the middle of policing their member schools. That would require too much work. I also know for a fact that they decided to stay 25-25-25-25 but when the coaches left they changed it to its present screwed up form we are stuck with today. The same system that allowed S. Caldwell (with a losing record) to be a #1 seed and get a 1st round bye. As a long time FB coach I feel like we coaches seldom have our voices heard. We put in all the time and do all the work but the AD's, principals, superintendents, and NCHSAA Board members make all the rules for us. Too many other things but that would require me writing a book. I expect more from them than what we get. 

The new superintendent that came in 2008 or so to Guilford from CMS (he had been the assistant there) stated that what he saw in Guilford County was just as bad as anything he witnessed in Meck County which went through the 2007 season and subsequent investigations.  Issue with the NCHSAA is they are deemed a non investigative body and rely on the LEAs to investigate and report.  The cost to be a full, feet on the ground investigative body would be huge.  I saw a $106,000 invoice from a non affilifated law firm in 2008 that included private investigators.  Do not expect that but they would need to add several people and they would not have unlimited authority due to legalities.  With that said, I would like to see it reviewed further.

"When the coaches left."  At the board meeting the football coaches have a head coach that is a member of the Board of Directors.  Not sure I have seen another football coach at the meetings.  I personally thought they should have went 30/20/20/30 and not subdivided 2A and 3A if they were going to offset the numbers.  The balancing act with football and the other sports is the hurdle and why I have pushed for a separate alignment of the two for several years.

Regarding coaches having influence, well that is a hot topic for me.  They had the perfect opportunity to take control of their sport when the NCHSAA recommended going to two alignments, one football and the other all non sports.  "Too confusing, too many parts, would hurt rivalries."  Add to the fact that the football coaches organization is weak and does not work together well.  Football coaches should have more say in their sport but until they can unite like a political operative they will continue to be pushed off to the side.

I know a few people that worked at the NCHSAA offices.  I will bring up an idea or past occurence and ask for their thoughts or the reasons.  They are able to give me solid examples of why something would be an issue or why it did not happen.  In 2008 during the CMS citizens group for athletic eligibility I was part of an experience that was eye opening.  Potential rules were brought up and the reasons for why a rule was needed.  The occurences were crazy but understandable at times.  Then the professionals would speak.  Attorney explaining how a regulation could be challenged and how it would play out.  An educator explaining why there would be an issue.  The director of busing/transportation showing a map with examples of traffic patterns.  The person over districting showing why a district was drawn a certain way and where federal programs came into play.  I learned things that had zero to do with athletics that were actually directly responsible for a lot of what was going on.  Crazy!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/3/2018 at 1:49 PM, Catholic said:

Was referencing the NCHSAA adjusted rankings, not Max Preps rankings. 

oh, my bad.  All these rules and etc and polls are very confusing for me.

Hopefully, the teams that win five games will be the best teams and that will be that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know for a fact that one HC was at the meeting and he had to leave early but the percentages were discussed while he was there. What was decided was that they would stay 25-25-25-25. When he arrived home he found out that this was not true. It was changed to the stupid percentages we are forced to use. In regard to your reasoning as to why the coaches association has little power I will say that he NCHSAA only helps when we coaches do what they want us to do. If we come up with an idea they take forever to change. One example is that for years way back many years ago we wanted to add an 11th game to make extra money. they said NO every year, until they say another way to make more money for themselves. They called it an Endowment Game and they decided to take half the money. They only do things if it benefits them. They also have a rule that says if there is a vote and the head coaches who do not show up have their non vote count as a No. Why do they not simply do not count it and use the votes of the people present. If the people who were not there to vote complain they would simply be told that if they disagree they should have been there to vote.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Glenn said:

I know for a fact that one HC was at the meeting and he had to leave early but the percentages were discussed while he was there. What was decided was that they would stay 25-25-25-25. When he arrived home he found out that this was not true. It was changed to the stupid percentages we are forced to use. In regard to your reasoning as to why the coaches association has little power I will say that he NCHSAA only helps when we coaches do what they want us to do. If we come up with an idea they take forever to change. One example is that for years way back many years ago we wanted to add an 11th game to make extra money. they said NO every year, until they say another way to make more money for themselves. They called it an Endowment Game and they decided to take half the money. They only do things if it benefits them. They also have a rule that says if there is a vote and the head coaches who do not show up have their non vote count as a No. Why do they not simply do not count it and use the votes of the people present. If the people who were not there to vote complain they would simply be told that if they disagree they should have been there to vote.  

Endowment Game is 25% to the NCHSAA not 50%.  I support having an endowment.  I support having a retirement plan.  I support having a savings account.  The endowment will be what will save high school sports in this state long term.

The reason to go to 20/30/30/20 was due to complaints from then 1A and 4A schools that the difference in school sizes was too great.  1A is really the class that is the issue as the non football playing schools are all in the 1A except a couple.  For two days before the vote there were committee meetings and floor discussion.  It was my understanding that it was never a definitive until the vote and it was discussed longer than any item in recent memory.  I am going to try and get the minutes to see if shows more information.  The committee may have preferred 25 across the board but a committee is usually 20% of the full voting board so it is no way near a done deal when it comes out of committee.

The reasoning for not going to an 11th game for years was the winter sports contested lengtening the season.  Remember when the schedule went to 11 games in 11 weeks during the middle of the alginment?  Board of Directors voted on that against the NCHSAA admin's request.  I was in the meeting when Que Tucker, then an assistant literally begged them not to vote it to 11/11 as it would be crushing to football programs in the far reaches of the state and it was.  Some teams played nine games the next year.  Two years later they went back to 11 in 12 weeks.  I think it should be planned going forward for year one of the next alignment to go 11 in 11.  Prefer more prep time and the season ending closer to the first of the month than Christmas.  Once again, smaller schools especially 1A take have more issues with the longer season.

I agree with the voting rule.  At one time I did not but with research and questions I understand it totally.  Just as with the coaches association too many people do not get involved at all unless it directly effects them.  Not a lot of the "greater good" going on there. 

As far as the football coaches, they do not work together.  You have to get a consensus and everyone support it.  Example:  coaches rep comes to the meeting and says this is what we want.  After calling several coaches from different areas of the state and classifications they get numerous different answers and lack of support.  They have to be all in and on the same page.  It has to be like a political organization with everyone pushing the agenda and standing by it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Endowment Game is 25% to the NCHSAA not 50%. Actually, their money is taken off the top before expenses which pushes it up more than 25%. So, you agree with the NCHSAA that if coaches do not show up to vote their vote counts as a NO? I definitely do not want our organizations to be like a political organization. Most political organizations are run by crooks. Their reasoning for not going to an 11th game makes zero sense because it works out fine now. The extra money comes in handy. If we did not have to give the NCHSAA their unfair share it would be even better. This is the reason many schools do not play this game. They do not think it is right for them to take this money. Plus the 11th game enables our players to become better FB players. People complain that the playoffs are too long. I disagreee with their assessment because of the fact that our program has developed into a much better program because of these extra games as well as the positive attitude it creates. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your opinion.  Not saying it is wrong.

When the Parochial school issue was brought forward a few years ago it was done in a very clandestine way.  Cowardly, actually.  The crazy thing is the coach that led won state titles with a star player (ACC recruit and starter) that did not live in the district but he was against the Parochials and was able to get a group to vote against them.  The Parochials had very little time to prepare while other schools had been working covertly on the plan.  That day I truly decided to support no vote as a NO.  Personally, I think two changes should be required with Parochial schools.  Student must have been a member of the Catholic Church in good standing for at least two years before they participate in a sport and they should play up one classification or have a multiplier.  Just my opinion which the three schools and the NCHSAA do not agree with.

The schools pay 25% of the gate off the top.  Expenses then come off but some additional money, such as concessions, comes in.  Very schools do not play an 11th game and the ones that do not is usually not decided by the payout off the top but other logistical issues.

I have no issue with the five round playoff, I like it!  I do not like it in 1A and 4A because I do not think 64 of 75 teams should qualify for the playoffs and I do not like the bye week.  Why have 86% of the teams make the playoffs?

In terms of a political organization it is meant the coaches must come together as a consensus.  Determine the items / issues they wish to implement or change and come to a conclusion what the most important ones are in order.  Then they have to support that.  Too much fragmentation. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think what they did was cowardly at all. I lived and coached in that area for over 20 years and did not like the fact that this one particular school is in the public school association. The former HC was a great guy and I enjoyed seeing him and talking to him a lot. Their frustration of having to compete on an uneven playing table has always been a concern. The problem is the rest of the state does not care because they never play them. Had they been on board then this school would have been voted out. I do not think any Parochial school should be a member of the public school association because the playing field will never be level. But since they are here to stay and I am sure more will be included in the future I agree that they should have to play up a classification and in the playoffs they should have to play as a 4AA team.   Concessions money does not go into the athletic fund. It stays in the Booster Club fund and therefore cannot be used to calculate the amount of money each school gets when they play the Endowment Game or the percentages involved. All of my many coaching friends tell me that the reason they do not play an Endowment Game is because they do not want to give the NCHSAA any of the money form the Endowment Game. They also say that when the day comes that the schools get to keep all this money they will play this game. But, until this happens, they will never play it. I like playing it because I want our players to gain all the experience they can. I do not think it should be included in the playoff seeding procedure because I like to see us play someone who is better than we are (to assess where we stand and what areas we need to fix) but do not want it to hurt us in the playoff process. I also hope we make just enough to cover expenses so that the NCHSAA gets as little money as possible. Logistics had nothing to do with it because most teams play the Endowment Game close to home. I would love to play Page every year as an Endowment Game because of the money this game generates but realistically we can not compete year in and year out (even though we should have beaten them last year and had an opportunity to beat them this year) because they have twice the enrollment that we have. People who do not think this matters really do not have a realistic understanding of how this works. This reason why the 1A and 4A playoffs should not be structured the way they are comes back to the fact that the percentages should have stayed 25-25-25-25. Last year every school we played in the east were all 4A size schools except for us. I think most FB coaches do not participate and really get excited about arriving at a consensus is because they have seen most of their ideas in the past shot down by the NCHSAA when it gets to them and their board of directors. Plus, as an assistant coach,  what I have found to be true is that both of my associations look at us as second class citizens. We have no voice in anything. We have no voting rights. We can not hold an office. As a matter of fact, they would be happier if we were not members. This is especially true with the NCFCA. I was told this by the head of this association. My answer was that perhaps all of the assistant coaches should quit and let the head coaches do everything themselves. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An easy tweak is to make the point differential a maximum of 21 points.  I think that would satisfy both parties.  It will be brought up in about three weeks in Chapel Hill.

That would be a better solution.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have pushed the 21 point differential for weeks and told several coaches that is the best option.  Keeps both side satisfied but does give some additional support to the true difference in a W or L.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Glenn said:

I don't think what they did was cowardly at all. I lived and coached in that area for over 20 years and did not like the fact that this one particular school is in the public school association. The former HC was a great guy and I enjoyed seeing him and talking to him a lot. Their frustration of having to compete on an uneven playing table has always been a concern. The problem is the rest of the state does not care because they never play them. Had they been on board then this school would have been voted out. I do not think any Parochial school should be a member of the public school association because the playing field will never be level. But since they are here to stay and I am sure more will be included in the future I agree that they should have to play up a classification and in the playoffs they should have to play as a 4AA team.   Concessions money does not go into the athletic fund. It stays in the Booster Club fund and therefore cannot be used to calculate the amount of money each school gets when they play the Endowment Game or the percentages involved. All of my many coaching friends tell me that the reason they do not play an Endowment Game is because they do not want to give the NCHSAA any of the money form the Endowment Game. They also say that when the day comes that the schools get to keep all this money they will play this game. But, until this happens, they will never play it. I like playing it because I want our players to gain all the experience they can. I do not think it should be included in the playoff seeding procedure because I like to see us play someone who is better than we are (to assess where we stand and what areas we need to fix) but do not want it to hurt us in the playoff process. I also hope we make just enough to cover expenses so that the NCHSAA gets as little money as possible. Logistics had nothing to do with it because most teams play the Endowment Game close to home. I would love to play Page every year as an Endowment Game because of the money this game generates but realistically we can not compete year in and year out (even though we should have beaten them last year and had an opportunity to beat them this year) because they have twice the enrollment that we have. People who do not think this matters really do not have a realistic understanding of how this works. This reason why the 1A and 4A playoffs should not be structured the way they are comes back to the fact that the percentages should have stayed 25-25-25-25. Last year every school we played in the east were all 4A size schools except for us. I think most FB coaches do not participate and really get excited about arriving at a consensus is because they have seen most of their ideas in the past shot down by the NCHSAA when it gets to them and their board of directors. Plus, as an assistant coach,  what I have found to be true is that both of my associations look at us as second class citizens. We have no voice in anything. We have no voting rights. We can not hold an office. As a matter of fact, they would be happier if we were not members. This is especially true with the NCFCA. I was told this by the head of this association. My answer was that perhaps all of the assistant coaches should quit and let the head coaches do everything themselves. 

I personally think the endowment game should have all the cash go to the school.  I like the endowment fund and the benefits it can bring long term but schools are struggling now more than ever.

I did not like dropping the loss concept.  I like the power poll concept better if it is used correctly.  I did not like drawing straws or predetermined slots in the old days.

I do not know many coaches that do not want an extra game.  They all seem to want a playoff bid regardless of the record or what percentage of the teams make the playoffs.

I think the assistants should have more involvement and possibly voting rights after a certain number of years in the system.  Any head coach should be asking his seasoned assistants for their ideas and vote accordingly.

Strong and committed group with their ADs, principals, and superintendents supporting their ideas will get a lot of traction.  Coaches must get their admin behind them.  

School enrollments and classifications are one of the biggest issues.  4A has schools with as many as 3,500 students.  Most are well over 2,000 with a lot around the 2,500 mark give or take 100.  EG must have been one of the absolute smallest 3AA schools last year.  New Hanover had around 1,500 students so they were fairly close in numbers and Conley was less than 1,700.  Clayton is an issue that would be remedied by not using classifications for the playoffs but divisions using current year ADMs after the schools qualify.

What do you think the numbers break down should be for classifications?  There is going to be a smallest school and a largest school and I would think there will be around 400 students difference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is a tough question to answer.  I will have to look at the numbers and give it some thought. Do you like the way SC does it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Glenn said:

That is a tough question to answer.  I will have to look at the numbers and give it some thought. Do you like the way SC does it?

SC works with five classes.  NC would not work so well.  

The SCHSL was sued by a few of the schools over new alignment and setup.  SCHSL gets as much hate and complaints as the NCHSAA.  Always something going on but I think SC is a bit more renegade state where sports often trumps education.

NC needs to really look st all options again on alignment.  They did last time but the schools did not want to change.  Each option had heavy criticism.  A common theme was just stick with what we have.  Football coaches do not seem to want more classes as they thinknthere will be less champions and teams in the playoffs.  Common question on the five class option was would football still subdivide.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I posted somewhere that one solution would be at the end of the year list all schools in order of their ADM numbers. Then pick out the qualifying schools (nobody qualifies if they do not have a .500 season)  and from this number of schools split them into 8 classes. It does not matter what division they played in during the season. The end of year ADM numbers determines which class you fit into. You could be a 3A team during the 4 year alignment period but you may be in the 2AA or 4A division for the playoffs. This would fix the common problem of schools getting larger or smaller during that 4 year period of time. Even this solution is not without faults but it is a better solution than what we now have. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×