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2017 NCHSAA Realignment

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Woodmont V JL Mann


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#26 CarolinaHawkeyeFan

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 08:59 AM

Totally legal to run/warm-up prior to weigh-ins beginning.  Just can't do weight loss activities once weigh-ins begin.  You are entitled to your opinion on the outcome of the match and JLM's antics.  Thanks for sharing.  Most lively this new board has been since it started!!

 

TBowe

I enjoyed the Yoda speak....



#27 TBowe

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 09:03 AM

TBowe is correct that it is a rule and home team chooses scale. I asked an official at a match I was watching last night who showed me the rule book; however, I think his statement, "very seldom do teams get to wrestle their best line-ups" is bogus and not a proper thing for an unbiased official to say. Any match where a team is assuming that they are bringing there best line-up and expect to wrestle that line-up should be able to if they make weight. Now if a kid within a couple tenths is or right on weight on their home scale, then they should anticipate there might be an issue. Since this was a region match, with play-off seeding implications, you can expect the coach wanted to wrestle his best line-up. 

 

But according to the OP, and we haven't heard from any one else present at the weigh-in as far as I can tell to contradict her, the "aggrieved" team left their school believing they were well under. The op is claiming that the scale variance is .5 - 1 pounds - that  variance isn't unheard of but still is a significant variance. If true, someone's scale may not be calibrated correctly or the "feet" of the scale are unbalanced. If I were a coach going to JL Mann after reading this, I would bring my scale anyway. I would make sure an official was present, check the certification, and if there still seemed to be a variance, ask the Mann coaches if we could use my scale. Should they decline, my team would be s.o.l. but I would have an official note that in case I wanted to bring it up with the SCHSL for a further investigation/ruling. Again, a .5 variance is not unheard of, but a full 1 lb variance might be symptomatic of a problem. 

 

TBowe, I not sure, but isn't it a rule you can't cut weight in the presence of an official? If so, I do not agree with that rule. If this team could have cut weight once they arrived and checked on Mann's scale, maybe this hoopla could have been avoided.

 

My statement about "best" line-up has nothing to do with being an official.  I've seen thousands of teams compete over the years.  Ask any coach how many times they get their absolute "best" line-up on the mat during the course of a season.  I guarantee you it is less than 50% of the time.  Doesn't mean they don't want to, just means it is hard with 14 weight classes.  Injuries, not cutting weight, in trouble at school or home, etc., etc. etc..  It's hard fielding your "best" team event after event.

 

You can't do any weight loss activities once weigh-ins begin.  If kids are running/warming up when an official walks into the facility, shouldn't be a problem as long as they are not wearing "plastics", etc..  Book does not allow for quick weight loss aids like plastics, saunas, hot showers, etc..  But running in warm-ups prior to weigh-ins beginning is fine.

 

TBowe



#28 TBowe

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 09:05 AM

I enjoyed the Yoda speak....

 

I don't know what that means.  I do know who Yoda is, but it has been many years since I have seen the original movies.

 

TBowe



#29 CarolinaHawkeyeFan

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 10:03 AM

My statement about "best" line-up has nothing to do with being an official.  I've seen thousands of teams compete over the years.  Ask any coach how many times they get their absolute "best" line-up on the mat during the course of a season.  I guarantee you it is less than 50% of the time.  Doesn't mean they don't want to, just means it is hard with 14 weight classes.  Injuries, not cutting weight, in trouble at school or home, etc., etc. etc..  It's hard fielding your "best" team event after event.

 

You can't do any weight loss activities once weigh-ins begin.  If kids are running/warming up when an official walks into the facility, shouldn't be a problem as long as they are not wearing "plastics", etc..  Book does not allow for quick weight loss aids like plastics, saunas, hot showers, etc..  But running in warm-ups prior to weigh-ins beginning is fine.

 

TBowe

I think you are way overstating at 50%. I think that many teams have a kid missing here or there, but I think missing kid(s) 50% of the time is a little exaggerated. I think many teams have a complete line-up the majority of the time, and for a region match I would think a coach would do whatever possible to ensure his best line-up takes the mat. Besides, the op implied that very many kids missed weight which would dramatically affect their line-up and chances of winning. Now if she is incorrect in her accusations then her team got the result they deserved.

 

 Regardless of the weigh-in outcome, I do not agree that just because 50% of teams can't field their best line-up that a coach who can should just accept it when he can't. I would also hope that all officials are fair and judicious following the rule book as I look upon an official as a judge in the truest definition of the term. I, personally, don't think an official should have such a skewed attitude. My opinion for what it is worth...

 

As for "Yoda speak" I thought the wording of your last sentence, "Most lively this...." was reminiscent of an early time in a message board galaxy far, far away where certain posters would take on names and speak as Star Wars characters. I especially miss the Darth Vomitus fellow as I personally found him entertaining.



#30 TBowe

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 10:27 AM

I think you are way overstating at 50%. I think that many teams have a kid missing here or there, but I think missing kid(s) 50% of the time is a little exaggerated. I think many teams have a complete line-up the majority of the time, and for a region match I would think a coach would do whatever possible to ensure his best line-up takes the mat. Besides, the op implied that very many kids missed weight which would dramatically affect their line-up and chances of winning. Now if she is incorrect in her accusations then her team got the result they deserved.

 

 Regardless of the weigh-in outcome, I do not agree that just because 50% of teams can't field their best line-up that a coach who can should just accept it when he can't. I would also hope that all officials are fair and judicious following the rule book as I look upon an official as a judge in the truest definition of the term. I, personally, don't think an official should have such a skewed attitude. My opinion for what it is worth...

 

As for "Yoda speak" I thought the wording of your last sentence, "Most lively this...." was reminiscent of an early time in a message board galaxy far, far away where certain posters would take on names and speak as Star Wars characters. I especially miss the Darth Vomitus fellow as I personally found him entertaining.

 

You misread my statement. It said that teams do not field their best line-up more than 50% of the time.  That does not mean A certain kid misses over 50% of the matches (although this can happen with injury).  What it means is that at least one of the 14 weight classes does not have what you would consider to be one of your 14 best kids.  Many teams have to wait till kids can get to their minimum certified weight to field what they consider to be their best line-up.  Promise you I am right.  Ask around.  Lots of teams never get their best line-up on the mat the entire season. 

 

What this statement has to do with being an un-biased official I have no idea. It was not stated in regards to the JLM v. WDMT match (the rules were followed that night).  More of a general statement.  Of course coaches always want their best line-up on the mat.  Just don't get to do it very much.  Case in point, we played 11 football games this year.  I think we started the same 11 on D exactly 2 times.  And, wrestling has 14 slots to fill.  Life happens, things get in the way.  Is it relevant to this particular match, no.  Is it reality, yes.

 

 

TBowe



#31 CarolinaHawkeyeFan

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 11:17 AM

My point, TBowe, is your post read like you were non-chalantly dismissing the OP's concerns about her team not being able to field their best line-up. It read like you were just telling her to "deal with it." That other teams cannot field their best line-ups over 50% of the time has absolutely nothing to do with another team not being able to because of a non-calibrated scale, should that be the case. If the scale in question is certified and hasn't become uncalibrated then so be it. The kids didn't make weight, they can't field their best line-up, and have to deal with it.

 

BUT IF there were some shenanigans at play, as the OP contends, then telling her to deal with it because most teams can't field their best line-up 50% of the time - especially since this is a region match - is out of line, especially for an official. My opinion.



#32 TBowe

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 11:31 AM

My point, TBowe, is your post read like you were non-chalantly dismissing the OP's concerns about her team not being able to field their best line-up. It read like you were just telling her to "deal with it." That other teams cannot field their best line-ups over 50% of the time has absolutely nothing to do with another team not being able to because of a non-calibrated scale, should that be the case. If the scale in question is certified and hasn't become uncalibrated then so be it. The kids didn't make weight, they can't field their best line-up, and have to deal with it.

 

BUT IF there were some shenanigans at play, as the OP contends, then telling her to deal with it because most teams can't field their best line-up 50% of the time - especially since this is a region match - is out of line, especially for an official. My opinion.

 

Actually, when I brought up most teams don't field their "best" line-up the majority of the time, I was replying to JB.  Not, wildcatmom.  Go back and check the posts.  So, in fact, I was not telling her to "deal with it".  I was making a point about the nature of the sport. However, thanks for your input on what an official should and should not do.

 

TBowe



#33 Wizzer

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 11:44 AM

TBowe you sure do use a lot of other sports as examples I’m just not sure how they relate to Wrestling. Everyone here keeps bringing up the scales within .2 lbs of each other. That is not what we are talking about here. If I read and understand the issue was +3 whole lbs. not tenths of a pound. As far as line up go, I don’t know many coaches out there willing to wrestle their entire lineup up one weight class “and” give up a weight bc they can’t make it work with the scales. That’s not to say coaches don’t “flex” their line ups to get the best lineups and put themselves in a position to win. But that’s not what we’re talking about. We asking the away team to wrestle up a weight class in every weight class. Furthermore, I don’t know that for some of your line up it matters Wrestling up a weight class. I think the kids truely affected are those who are .500 wrestlers in their own respective weight class. Now send them up a weight? That influences a match in any sport on any field or court home or away.

#34 TBowe

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 12:11 PM

TBowe you sure do use a lot of other sports as examples I’m just not sure how they relate to Wrestling. Everyone here keeps bringing up the scales within .2 lbs of each other. That is not what we are talking about here. If I read and understand the issue was +3 whole lbs. not tenths of a pound. As far as line up go, I don’t know many coaches out there willing to wrestle their entire lineup up one weight class “and” give up a weight bc they can’t make it work with the scales. That’s not to say coaches don’t “flex” their line ups to get the best lineups and put themselves in a position to win. But that’s not what we’re talking about. We asking the away team to wrestle up a weight class in every weight class. Furthermore, I don’t know that for some of your line up it matters Wrestling up a weight class. I think the kids truely affected are those who are .500 wrestlers in their own respective weight class. Now send them up a weight? That influences a match in any sport on any field or court home or away.

 

Call me well-rounded.  I don't disagree with anything you said.

 

TBowe



#35 TheTruthTeller

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 02:06 PM

Here are the facts on weigh-ins and the proper procedure to be followed.

1. First, the official should have been there to conduct weigh-ins. They should not have started without him unless he had contacted the coaches and told him he was going to be late and to go ahead without him.

2. All scales are checked for a certification sticker (which is done yearly) prior to weigh-ins beginning. If the JLM scale had a valid sticker, then it was perfectly legal. No challenging the scale with a weight or any of that other crap, not necessary or allowed.

3. You don't get to travel with your own scale and use that for weigh-ins. I see this all the time and it is ridiculous! It is the home teams decision on what scale is used and if they will allow another scale to be used. It's called home field advantage in most sports. It's part of the game in wrestling and one of the small advantages you do get for wrestling at home.

4. When we use multiple scales at tournaments, they all must be within .2 pounds of each other or they are not used.

5. Wildcatmom, there really was not anything your coaches could have done differently other than getting to JLM sooner. Lesson learned, arrive early and check weight on schools scale as soon as you arrive!!

TBowe



#36 TheTruthTeller

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 02:16 PM

Well, Mr. TBowe, I would strongly disagree with you but you are obviously an all-knowing person. I would like to state the fact that clearly if 5-6 of a 14 man line up misses weight that doesn't mean that Woodmont can flex their team by bumping up all weight classes to fill a best line up on the spot. Also, I do disagree with the fact that you say there's "nothing you can do about it" because under the highschool association rules you can test the scales with weights and compare the weight to the numbers that are displayed on the digital scale. Clearly the JL Mann coaches were extremely defensive when Woodmont wanted to test the accuracy of the "certified" scale. The whole point and job of a scale is to weigh things ACCURATELY. So that being said why can the challenging team not weigh something to find the accuracy of the scale?

In addition, I would like to add that not many wrestlers gain up to four pounds on a bus ride. Let alone the ignorance of doing so, someone would have to gorge themselves to gain that much weight over the course of a twenty minute drive from the Woodmont highschool to JL Mann highschool.

This being said I would also like to add to the fact that most teams that wrestle at JL Mann highschool are likely to have nearly three kids miss weight each time. It is also not the home teams choice whether the challenging team decides to challenge the scale with there own. In addition if the home team does have a problem with the challengers scale both teams can compare the scale with a 45 pound weight. Will you be able to rebuttal your way out of these statements Mr. TBowe?

#37 TBowe

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 03:15 PM

Well, Mr. TBowe, I would strongly disagree with you but you are obviously an all-knowing person. I would like to state the fact that clearly if 5-6 of a 14 man line up misses weight that doesn't mean that Woodmont can flex their team by bumping up all weight classes to fill a best line up on the spot. Also, I do disagree with the fact that you say there's "nothing you can do about it" because under the highschool association rules you can test the scales with weights and compare the weight to the numbers that are displayed on the digital scale. Clearly the JL Mann coaches were extremely defensive when Woodmont wanted to test the accuracy of the "certified" scale. The whole point and job of a scale is to weigh things ACCURATELY. So that being said why can the challenging team not weigh something to find the accuracy of the scale?

In addition, I would like to add that not many wrestlers gain up to four pounds on a bus ride. Let alone the ignorance of doing so, someone would have to gorge themselves to gain that much weight over the course of a twenty minute drive from the Woodmont highschool to JL Mann highschool.

This being said I would also like to add to the fact that most teams that wrestle at JL Mann highschool are likely to have nearly three kids miss weight each time. It is also not the home teams choice whether the challenging team decides to challenge the scale with there own. In addition if the home team does have a problem with the challengers scale both teams can compare the scale with a 45 pound weight. Will you be able to rebuttal your way out of these statements Mr. TBowe?

 

Yes, you are wrong.  If a scale is certified, there is no such thing as "challenging" it with a 45 pound weight (which you have no idea whether it is in fact exactly 45 pounds) or with the visiting teams scale.  Rule book is pretty clear that it is home teams responsibility to provide a certified scale and their choice on what scale to use for weigh-ins at dual meets.  Doesn't matter that the visiting team brought a scale, if the home team doesn't want to use it, the visiting scale is a non-issue.  On that particular night, the official would have no choice but to use the home scale for weigh-ins, as long as it is properly certified.  Sorry, but those are the rules in place.

 

TBowe



#38 BuckkillerSC

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 08:01 PM

Yes, you are wrong.  If a scale is certified, there is no such thing as "challenging" it with a 45 pound weight (which you have no idea whether it is in fact exactly 45 pounds) or with the visiting teams scale.  Rule book is pretty clear that it is home teams responsibility to provide a certified scale and their choice on what scale to use for weigh-ins at dual meets.  Doesn't matter that the visiting team brought a scale, if the home team doesn't want to use it, the visiting scale is a non-issue.  On that particular night, the official would have no choice but to use the home scale for weigh-ins, as long as it is properly certified.  Sorry, but those are the rules in place.
 
TBowe


Didn’t this rule change a couple of years ago? No more challenging or checking the scale for weight accuracy? The officials should play a bigger part in this other than just looking at a scale. You guys should carry scale weights with you to verify a scale even though a scale says certified. I mean if you want a sticker that certifies a scale, i can get that where i work. Most people in the automotive industry can get these stickers. I never have and never will but then again, our coaches would never do anything like that. So with that being said, a scale can be changed to give the wrong weight. Don’t be so naive to think it can’t.
SC coaches association should do more to keep this from happening. That is what the leaders are getting paid to do. #MSCWGA

#39 Jim Baxter

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 08:27 PM

My statement about "best" line-up has nothing to do with being an official.  I've seen thousands of teams compete over the years.  Ask any coach how many times they get their absolute "best" line-up on the mat during the course of a season.  I guarantee you it is less than 50% of the time.  Doesn't mean they don't want to, just means it is hard with 14 weight classes.  Injuries, not cutting weight, in trouble at school or home, etc., etc. etc..  It's hard fielding your "best" team event after event.

 

You can't do any weight loss activities once weigh-ins begin.  If kids are running/warming up when an official walks into the facility, shouldn't be a problem as long as they are not wearing "plastics", etc..  Book does not allow for quick weight loss aids like plastics, saunas, hot showers, etc..  But running in warm-ups prior to weigh-ins beginning is fine.

 

TBowe

 

Troy,

That may be true that few put their best line ups on the mat weekly; but we ARE talking about multiple weight classes in this particular match. No matter how you look at it, the win is devalued. 



#40 Ultrakleen

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 10:00 PM

6 kids missed weight by at least 2#s, all rechecked it once back at the school and were well under. All wrestled the next night in their actual weight class with no one within a pound of going over. Something is not right.

#41 Worldwide

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 10:19 PM

JL Mann Coaches and kids all know what's going on there. Don't be fooled. It may go as far up as the A.D. at the school. The parents know the scales are like this too because kids talk, unless the parent's heads are in the sand. I doubt it though.

It's sorry to see that the coaches are encouraging these type of tactics to win at all costs. The coaches are cowards.

I'd put it squarely on the A.D. from this point forward.

#42 Worldwide

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 10:27 PM

BTW, here's the A.D.'s info
Tucker, Tod Athletic Director dtucker@greenville.k12.sc.us

#43 WildcatMom

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 05:43 PM

A little bit of REDEMTION with the JL Mann team. At the Greenville County Championships Woodmont took 4th with 118.5 points and JL Mann took 5th with only 93.0 points. Looks like same 13 wrestlers competed and JL Mann had their line up IDENTICAL to the Duals match on Thursday!!! Ha! Debate/argue all you want—-but if this doesn’t prove something idk what does. Woodmont had 6 in the final four with TWO champs (138 and 145)-ONE runner-Up (195) - TWO in third (113 and HWT) ONE fourth (195). Let’s NOTE that JL Mann had only TWO in the finals with ONE runner up (HWT) and ONE take 2/3rd (182). Funny how less than 36 hours our boys made weight and did just fine..... food for thought!!!




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