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2017 NCHSAA Realignment

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Woodmont V JL Mann


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#1 WildcatMom

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 09:28 PM

.....Asking for a friend..... what constitutes a certified scale???

Yes-I’m “just a Wrestling mom. Many do not give Wrestling moms that have skin in the game for a decade or more enough credit. I know what I know.... but-bc of the situation I’m gonna throw this out here (the whole scenario) and wait for everyone’s reply. Seriously though....I want everyone’s feedback and thoughts on this.

Tonight, Woodmont had a region match against JL Mann. Yep-new rankings have us in the top 20. We deserve to be there. Several ranked boys (5/14) and at least a few more that were favored to win. Well. Woodmont LOST to JL Mann 42-39. BUT LEMME GO THROUGH THE SCENERIO WITH YOU ALL and genuinely ask you what each of you would have done and what could have been done differently.

Just as all other teams do, our line up checked weights before leaving the school. Each and every single kid was AT LEAST 1/2 pound UNDER weight. Several 1 pound under. We arrive to JL Mann HS to weigh in and we have SIX boys miss weight and 3 made it by the skin of their teeth. Thus, we had to shift our line up an entire weight class across the board-some giving up nearly 20 lbs. we had to scratch a weight class as well which was a 12 point swing in JL Mann’s favor-sketchy at best. Here’s the deal. It’s not uncommon for a wrestler to miss weight. Like ONE wrestler on an entire team.... BUT 6!?? Not to mention ALL OF JL MANNs boys wrestled their respective weight class. Add insult to injury there was NOT an official present at weigh in. When the assistant coach and team captain attempted to challenge the scale w a 10lb weight JL Mann’s coaches flat out refused to allow us to “check the scale.” Like literally both stood in front of it?? Sketchy. We chalked it up to a challenging match and attempted to move forward. Well-the crooked saga continues. They had their guy “washing the mats” while the Home team was warming up in the aux gym. So long and so much that a Woodmont coach grabbed the mop to finish the job after they mopped the mats three times over preventing WHS from warming UP. The kid came off the mat apologizing to several other JL Mann guys about he took as long as he could...!? Again, crooked. Half way through the Duals match the HOME TEAM quit taking score on the main board and left it 0-10 the entire time? Strategic? Hell yes it was.... It was left up to a guess if we had enough points to win BY decision or major decision.

Our entire team returned back to OUR “CERTIFIED” SCALES and all weighed in AFTER hydrating up and each and everyone made the correct weight classes.

We lost. It sucks to lose. Sucks for the boys that work really hard and for teams that fall short by a few points. It’s my opinion this was a crooked job by the JL Mann coaches. Say what you will. I’m not hiding behind the internet bc I’m telling y’all I’m a Wildcat Mom! JL Mann set this up for an advantage and succeeded. I don’t think we can change this outcome of a region loss at this point. Should have been done prior to start of the match. But hey-I’m just a simple Wrestling mom right!!?? Please let me know your thoughts!!?? I have broad shoulders.

#2 CU2017

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 09:39 PM

Sounds like an ole fort mill tactic

#3 JTW

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 11:09 PM

Funny that my son told me tonight that JL Mann scales are always about 2 pounds heavy. We were talking about it because we go there next week.

#4 CarolinaHawkeyeFan

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 05:59 AM

Every scale has to be certified before each season. That should be documented; although, I don't think there is a rule stating that coaches need to have documentation on site. When you go to a tournament using many scales, there always seems to be a difference between what each weighs. I believe when most scales come from the manufacturer their documentation says that the scale is accurate + or - 1 or 2 lbs.

 

Next time bring your own scale and the documentation saying that is has been certified. Then there will be no reason why you can't use yours for the weigh-in.



#5 WildcatMom

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 06:49 AM

Well in my initial post I should have added that the scales were 3 pounds HEAVY!!! When I say my own child missed weight and was a pound UNDER at the school.... he and the 5-6 others were greater than 1-2.5 OVER at JL Mann!!! That’s why it’s such a big deal. It was tenths of a pound over. It was significant. It was strategic. Not to mention when we returned to their aux gym for skin checks AFTER the official return the scales were GONE! Totally disappeared. #CrookedAsHell Definitely NOT a coincidence.

#6 Worldwide

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 09:11 AM

Sounds to be bushleague move by JL Mann.

Checking the scale with weight should have been insisted upon by Woodmont coaches. In fact, a certified weight should be placed on a scale before any weigh in for both coaching staffs to see.
Or, if the two parties cant agree, wait for the ref to show.

A ten lb weight may not have shown the full discrepancy. My experience is the heavier the weight, the better you see how much a scale is off. Certified scale weights are 50lb. Dumbbells or plates out of the weight room are not guaranteed to give you complete accuracy, they are often +/- some ounces. However, it may have helped here. Also, when a scale is off your 106 lber may be over by a pound, but as heavier kids weigh in, all things being the same, that same scale will show your 170 lber over by 2 lbs.

Shameful on JL Mann

#7 WildcatMom

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 10:22 AM

Sounds to be bushleague move by JL Mann.

Checking the scale with weight should have been insisted upon by Woodmont coaches. In fact, a certified weight should be placed on a scale before any weigh in for both coaching staffs to see.
Or, if the two parties cant agree, wait for the ref to show.

A ten lb weight may not have shown the full discrepancy. My experience is the heavier the weight, the better you see how much a scale is off. Certified scale weights are 50lb. Dumbbells or plates out of the weight room are not guaranteed to give you complete accuracy, they are often +/- some ounces. However, it may have helped here. Also, when a scale is off your 106 lber may be over by a pound, but as heavier kids weigh in, all things being the same, that same scale will show your 170 lber over by 2 lbs.

Shameful on JL Mann

I MUST CLARIFY.... it was a 45lb weight that they attempted to challenge the scale with NOT 10 pound... that's a "mom Mistake." HA! Thanks for your feed back. Wish our head coach would have stepped up to the plate in defense of our guys.... this could seriously hinder a chance at Woodmont's region title.



#8 CarolinaHawkeyeFan

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 10:24 AM

Sounds to be bushleague move by JL Mann.

Checking the scale with weight should have been insisted upon by Woodmont coaches. In fact, a certified weight should be placed on a scale before any weigh in for both coaching staffs to see.
Or, if the two parties cant agree, wait for the ref to show.

A ten lb weight may not have shown the full discrepancy. My experience is the heavier the weight, the better you see how much a scale is off. Certified scale weights are 50lb. Dumbbells or plates out of the weight room are not guaranteed to give you complete accuracy, they are often +/- some ounces. However, it may have helped here. Also, when a scale is off your 106 lber may be over by a pound, but as heavier kids weigh in, all things being the same, that same scale will show your 170 lber over by 2 lbs.

Shameful on JL Mann

Who actually has "certified weights" laying around? Just bring your own scale.



#9 TBowe

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 12:06 PM

Here are the facts on weigh-ins and the proper procedure to be followed.

 

1. First, the official should have been there to conduct weigh-ins. They should not have started without him unless he had contacted the coaches and told him he was going to be late and to go ahead without him.

 

2. All scales are checked for a certification sticker (which is done yearly) prior to weigh-ins beginning.  If the JLM scale had a valid sticker, then it was perfectly legal.  No challenging the scale with a weight or any of that other crap, not necessary or allowed.

 

3. You don't get to travel with your own scale and use that for weigh-ins.  I see this all the time and it is ridiculous!  It is the home teams decision on what scale is used and if they will allow another scale to be used.  It's called home field advantage in most sports.  It's part of the game in wrestling and one of the small advantages you do get for wrestling at home.

 

4. When we use multiple scales at tournaments, they all must be within .2 pounds of each other or they are not used.

 

5. Wildcatmom, there really was not anything your coaches could have done differently other than getting to JLM sooner.  Lesson learned, arrive early and check weight on schools scale as soon as you arrive!!

 

TBowe



#10 TBowe

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 12:08 PM

Every scale has to be certified before each season. That should be documented; although, I don't think there is a rule stating that coaches need to have documentation on site. When you go to a tournament using many scales, there always seems to be a difference between what each weighs. I believe when most scales come from the manufacturer their documentation says that the scale is accurate + or - 1 or 2 lbs.

 

Next time bring your own scale and the documentation saying that is has been certified. Then there will be no reason why you can't use yours for the weigh-in.

 

False, home team decides what scales will or will not be used.

 

TBowe



#11 WildcatMom

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 12:24 PM

Thanks TBowe for your feed back. Sounds like only thing we could have done was wait for a ref.... but even that it sounds like JL Mann would have forced the issue to use their scale. Bottom Line..... poor sportsman like conduct. Nothing will change my mind. I mean honestly.... if it were that far off and JL Mann had nothing to hide why the sketchy back and fourth. Remains crooked in my books!

#12 Jim Baxter

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 12:42 PM

Thanks TBowe for your feed back. Sounds like only thing we could have done was wait for a ref.... but even that it sounds like JL Mann would have forced the issue to use their scale. Bottom Line..... poor sportsman like conduct. Nothing will change my mind. I mean honestly.... if it were that far off and JL Mann had nothing to hide why the sketchy back and fourth. Remains crooked in my books!


This is an unfortunate event. Whether there was intent or not, it certainly taints the results in y opinion.

#13 TBowe

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 01:26 PM

WildcatMOM, 

 

Not sure waiting for the ref would make a difference.  At least it shouldn't.  If the home team has a certified scale and they say they are using only our scale, then that is what the ref would uphold.  As I said, only thing WDMT could have done was get there earlier and check weight.

 

JB, 

 

I don't feel this taints results at all. Basketball teams play on different size courts all the time.  Does playing on a different size court taint those results? It is part of the "home field" advantage in wrestling.  When you have 14 weight classes lots of things go into each dual throughout the year.  Very rarely do teams get to field their "best" line-up during the course of a season.  If you score (or give up) 42 points in a dual, it's very difficult to lose (or win). 

 

You guys are insinuating that the JLM staff manipulated their digital scale.  Been around this sport my entire life and I have no idea how you would go about doing that and I doubt very seriously they do either.  Their scale is heavy, so what, its certified.  Guess what happens to their kids when they go on the road?  They are light every time.  Haven't seen them complain about that being a disadvantage to them.

 

TBowe



#14 BridgeMaster9000

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 02:11 PM

This is not JLM's fault... in all actuallity it is Woodmont's fault for weighing in without a ref present. If the scale was heavy that is just a downside, but if its certified then there is nothing that woodmont could do about it. Weighing in without an official present is like top 5 things not to do. On top of that you are supposed to wait one hour after weigh ins to wrestle. So if they wait for a ref, the mat is then dry, and they can drill properly before the match. I guess though, for Woodmont this is a fool me once type of issue.



#15 Worldwide

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 02:33 PM

Who actually has "certified weights" laying around? Just bring your own scale.


If you spend 300 to 800 on a scale, get it certified, but don't have a certified weight? Really, get a weight certified when you get the scale certified.
Then the coach can always check their scale for their own team.
2nd, Visitor doesn't get to choose which scale to use.
Also, when multiple scales are used at a tournament, the check scale should always be the heavy scale. Make it on that, you'll make it on the others.

#16 Jim Baxter

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 02:59 PM

WildcatMOM,

Not sure waiting for the ref would make a difference. At least it shouldn't. If the home team has a certified scale and they say they are using only our scale, then that is what the ref would uphold. As I said, only thing WDMT could have done was get there earlier and check weight.

JB,

I don't feel this taints results at all. Basketball teams play on different size courts all the time. Does playing on a different size court taint those results? It is part of the "home field" advantage in wrestling. When you have 14 weight classes lots of things go into each dual throughout the year. Very rarely do teams get to field their "best" line-up during the course of a season. If you score (or give up) 42 points in a dual, it's very difficult to lose (or win).

You guys are insinuating that the JLM staff manipulated their digital scale. Been around this sport my entire life and I have no idea how you would go about doing that and I doubt very seriously they do either. Their scale is heavy, so what, its certified. Guess what happens to their kids when they go on the road? They are light every time. Haven't seen them complain about that being a disadvantage to them.

TBowe


Troy, perhaps "tainted" was not the right word. But if multiple wrestlers were not able to wrestle in their proper weight classes then the win by JLM was at the very least devalued bybtgat fact.

That is not to insinuate that JLM did anything wrong but the win has less weight if the best were not on the mat for the opponents.

#17 JTW

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 03:18 PM

I want to clear up that I'm not saying JLM was cheating. Just stating that my kid knows they typically have a real heavy scale there. Most of the time, wrestlers and coaches know what schools have heavy scales.

However, if Woodmont's scale had their kids 3 pounds different than JLM's scale, I'd think somebody's scale isn't properly certified.

#18 TBowe

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 03:19 PM

Troy, perhaps "tainted" was not the right word. But if multiple wrestlers were not able to wrestle in their proper weight classes then the win by JLM was at the very least devalued bybtgat fact.

That is not to insinuate that JLM did anything wrong but the win has less weight if the best were not on the mat for the opponents.

 

I agree, but very seldom during the year do most teams get to wrestle their best line-ups.



#19 Wizzer

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 03:40 PM

WildcatMOM,

Not sure waiting for the ref would make a difference. At least it shouldn't. If the home team has a certified scale and they say they are using only our scale, then that is what the ref would uphold. As I said, only thing WDMT could have done was get there earlier and check weight.

JB,

I don't feel this taints results at all. Basketball teams play on different size courts all the time. Does playing on a different size court taint those results? It is part of the "home field" advantage in wrestling. When you have 14 weight classes lots of things go into each dual throughout the year. Very rarely do teams get to field their "best" line-up during the course of a season. If you score (or give up) 42 points in a dual, it's very difficult to lose (or win).

You guys are insinuating that the JLM staff manipulated their digital scale. Been around this sport my entire life and I have no idea how you would go about doing that and I doubt very seriously they do either. Their scale is heavy, so what, its certified. Guess what happens to their kids when they go on the road? They are light every time. Haven't seen them complain about that being a disadvantage to them.

TBowe



#20 Wizzer

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 03:47 PM

Tbowe: I’m not following your logic? No one is saying that the circle or mat was bigger or smaller?? But I would think that if your practicing on a basket that’s 10 1/2 ft. And “regulation” is only agreed upon by the home team then it absolutely will change the outcome of the game! Further more they absolutely aren’t complaining about being heavy!!! They know they can be 3lbs heavy on their scale before leaving for an event and make weight. This absolutely changes the match. Your changing the weight classes from 106/103 and 45 to 42? How is this right when we have set weight classes. Lastely, I hope for everyone in the state that “certified” scale doesn’t get volunteered for state a lot of good kids will be watching from the stands!

#21 WildcatMom

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 04:02 PM

WildcatMOM, 

 

Not sure waiting for the ref would make a difference.  At least it shouldn't.  If the home team has a certified scale and they say they are using only our scale, then that is what the ref would uphold.  As I said, only thing WDMT could have done was get there earlier and check weight.

 

JB, 

 

I don't feel this taints results at all. Basketball teams play on different size courts all the time.  Does playing on a different size court taint those results? It is part of the "home field" advantage in wrestling.  When you have 14 weight classes lots of things go into each dual throughout the year.  Very rarely do teams get to field their "best" line-up during the course of a season.  If you score (or give up) 42 points in a dual, it's very difficult to lose (or win). 

 

You guys are insinuating that the JLM staff manipulated their digital scale.  Been around this sport my entire life and I have no idea how you would go about doing that and I doubt very seriously they do either.  Their scale is heavy, so what, its certified.  Guess what happens to their kids when they go on the road?  They are light every time.  Haven't seen them complain about that being a disadvantage to them.

 

TBowe

Well dang... guess I gotta disagree with you TBowe.... it DOES, in fact, taint the results! You see, we NEVER would have lost / gave up/ whatever 42 points IF we had our guys in their respective weights. Since it was an official regions match up we DID have our best line up/foot forward. So that's a mute point as far as I'm concerned. You realize that even if we HAD gotten our guys there early (Which we did) to check weight (which we do prior to traveling at all) there would not be time to "cut" ...not to mention SCHSL would $#!+ a brick if we had our guys running. I'd bet that someone on JL Manns staff (well at least I wouldn't put it past them anyways) to file a complaint that "Woodmont's team was running prior to a match and blah blah blah.... I could go on and on.... But I wouldn't want to "taint" the waters with this either.....

 

PS I was not insinuating.... I am literally STATING my opinion.... those are my exact thoughts on JL Mann's antics....shady!



#22 CarolinaHawkeyeFan

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 04:41 PM

False, home team decides what scales will or will not be used.

 

TBowe

Is that a rule in the rule book? And if scales must be within .2 lbs of each other at tournaments, why couldn't you use your CERTIFIED scale as a measuring stick at a dual?



#23 TBowe

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 08:35 AM

Tbowe: I’m not following your logic? No one is saying that the circle or mat was bigger or smaller?? But I would think that if your practicing on a basket that’s 10 1/2 ft. And “regulation” is only agreed upon by the home team then it absolutely will change the outcome of the game! Further more they absolutely aren’t complaining about being heavy!!! They know they can be 3lbs heavy on their scale before leaving for an event and make weight. This absolutely changes the match. Your changing the weight classes from 106/103 and 45 to 42? How is this right when we have set weight classes. Lastely, I hope for everyone in the state that “certified” scale doesn’t get volunteered for state a lot of good kids will be watching from the stands!

 

The size of the court, not the basket was an example of "home field" advantage.  Just like weighing in on your own scale is an advantage. As I stated earlier, in tournaments, all scales will be within .2 pounds of each other so that will not be an issue.

 

TBowe



#24 CarolinaHawkeyeFan

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 08:38 AM

TBowe is correct that it is a rule and home team chooses scale. I asked an official at a match I was watching last night who showed me the rule book; however, I think his statement, "very seldom do teams get to wrestle their best line-ups" is bogus and not a proper thing for an unbiased official to say. Any match where a team is assuming that they are bringing there best line-up and expect to wrestle that line-up should be able to if they make weight. Now if a kid within a couple tenths is or right on weight on their home scale, then they should anticipate there might be an issue. Since this was a region match, with play-off seeding implications, you can expect the coach wanted to wrestle his best line-up. 

 

But according to the OP, and we haven't heard from any one else present at the weigh-in as far as I can tell to contradict her, the "aggrieved" team left their school believing they were well under. The op is claiming that the scale variance is .5 - 1 pounds - that  variance isn't unheard of but still is a significant variance. If true, someone's scale may not be calibrated correctly or the "feet" of the scale are unbalanced. If I were a coach going to JL Mann after reading this, I would bring my scale anyway. I would make sure an official was present, check the certification, and if there still seemed to be a variance, ask the Mann coaches if we could use my scale. Should they decline, my team would be s.o.l. but I would have an official note that in case I wanted to bring it up with the SCHSL for a further investigation/ruling. Again, a .5 variance is not unheard of, but a full 1 lb variance might be symptomatic of a problem. 

 

TBowe, I not sure, but isn't it a rule you can't cut weight in the presence of an official? If so, I do not agree with that rule. If this team could have cut weight once they arrived and checked on Mann's scale, maybe this hoopla could have been avoided.



#25 TBowe

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 08:45 AM

Well dang... guess I gotta disagree with you TBowe.... it DOES, in fact, taint the results! You see, we NEVER would have lost / gave up/ whatever 42 points IF we had our guys in their respective weights. Since it was an official regions match up we DID have our best line up/foot forward. So that's a mute point as far as I'm concerned. You realize that even if we HAD gotten our guys there early (Which we did) to check weight (which we do prior to traveling at all) there would not be time to "cut" ...not to mention SCHSL would $#!+ a brick if we had our guys running. I'd bet that someone on JL Manns staff (well at least I wouldn't put it past them anyways) to file a complaint that "Woodmont's team was running prior to a match and blah blah blah.... I could go on and on.... But I wouldn't want to "taint" the waters with this either.....

 

PS I was not insinuating.... I am literally STATING my opinion.... those are my exact thoughts on JL Mann's antics....shady!

 

Totally legal to run/warm-up prior to weigh-ins beginning.  Just can't do weight loss activities once weigh-ins begin.  You are entitled to your opinion on the outcome of the match and JLM's antics.  Thanks for sharing.  Most lively this new board has been since it started!!

 

TBowe






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