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#26 FHS1985

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 11:03 AM

Areas of refuge are the places were "discomfort" can be applied to get the maximum result.....the proverbial upset the apple cart.. One persons refuge is another persons discomfort...


Like I said-I can certainly take my money and go elsewhere. The league is betting that those like me won't make a difference-we'll see.

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

― C.S. Lewis


#27 Wrigley

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 11:07 AM

Define discomfort and we'll talk about it. The great and kind and just American people have done a great many things out of a sense that it was the right thing to do. Regardless of the justness of the issue I don't think we should be browbeaten about it at every opportunity-I watch sports to get away from the stresses of everyday life. If sports are no longer a refuge I will give them a pass, who needs it?


Define it?? Happy to and glad you asked.

" Segregation now, Segregation tommorow and Segregation forever"

You arent comfortable with the subject matter sliding into your world. Your escape. I get it..that a perfectly normal reaction.

Its the same reaction the well-intentioned people of Alabama and Mississippi had some 50 years ago." Why cant those colored people just stay in there own schools and use their own bathrooms"

You dont want the subject matter crossing over into wings, beer and 5 wide passing schemes. I get it 100%. Unfortunately change can and is usually kinda ugly.

#28 gg4bama

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 11:21 AM

He has a platform to use and he used it.  While I may not agree with him not standing for the National Anthem, he is well within his right to do so.  I didn't go into the military but my Dad was in Korea.  It does bother me when folks don't honor the flag or country in which they live but that is a freedom that this country provides.  I understand when people have issues with what goes on in this country and voice their concerns.  I have issues all the time and I voice my opinion by voting because that is all I can do. Singers and entertainers do it all the time in music and movies and we don't hear very much about it.  The NFL is so big and so much a part of American culture that when the media gave it all the coverage it did .... well we have what we have now. If nothing else comes of this, he at least got people talking. I am all for open dialogue when it comes to cultural, societal and political issues.  I hope when all is said and done that more is done than said.  If we as a country and society can learn from each other then we will all benefit greatly.  I really think if we did more listening to each other, we could all learn a little more everyday.  This country has all kinds of issues bigger than one man not standing for the national anthem.  This is just my opinion and if you disagree with me, that is fine. 



#29 FHS1985

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 11:27 AM

Define it?? Happy to and glad you asked.

" Segregation now, Segregation tommorow and Segregation forever"

You arent comfortable with the subject matter sliding into your world. Your escape. I get it..that a perfectly normal reaction.

Its the same reaction the well-intentioned people of Alabama and Mississippi had some 50 years ago." Why cant those colored people just stay in there own schools and use their own bathrooms"

You dont want the subject matter crossing over into wings, beer and 5 wide passing schemes. I get it 100%. Unfortunately change can and is usually kinda ugly.


That does not define "discomfort" . That's an example of a dark period in American history, but it is not the sum total of that history. To imply that the American people will not change unless they are made uncomfortable flies in the face of that history. We could have a conversation which would make us all uncomfortable, but we have remained civil-which I think is much more productive.

And I think that constantly browbeating people is ultimately counterproductive-many won't change, they'll just turn away or turn against. Frankly I think that's part of the reason Kaepernick started taking a knee.

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

― C.S. Lewis


#30 Jwelch20

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 12:07 PM

He has a platform to use and he used it. While I may not agree with him not standing for the National Anthem, he is well within his right to do so. I didn't go into the military but my Dad was in Korea. It does bother me when folks don't honor the flag or country in which they live but that is a freedom that this country provides. I understand when people have issues with what goes on in this country and voice their concerns. I have issues all the time and I voice my opinion by voting because that is all I can do. Singers and entertainers do it all the time in music and movies and we don't hear very much about it. The NFL is so big and so much a part of American culture that when the media gave it all the coverage it did .... well we have what we have now. If nothing else comes of this, he at least got people talking. I am all for open dialogue when it comes to cultural, societal and political issues. I hope when all is said and done that more is done than said. If we as a country and society can learn from each other then we will all benefit greatly. I really think if we did more listening to each other, we could all learn a little more everyday. This country has all kinds of issues bigger than one man not standing for the national anthem. This is just my opinion and if you disagree with me, that is fine.

well said

#31 Creekprogram

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 12:39 PM

That does not define "discomfort" . That's an example of a dark period in American history, but it is not the sum total of that history. To imply that the American people will not change unless they are made uncomfortable flies in the face of that history. We could have a conversation which would make us all uncomfortable, but we have remained civil-which I think is much more productive.

And I think that constantly browbeating people is ultimately counterproductive-many won't change, they'll just turn away or turn against. Frankly I think that's part of the reason Kaepernick started taking a knee.

 

Once again what you call "browbeating" is another persons daily circumstances...  At some point you have to get out of your "intellectual comfort zone" and do more research to really understand the concerns that are being brought to light.  The Initial inflection point of pain is to get your attention that something is wrong if you stay in that pain cycle you are unable to listen or hear what that concern genuine or not might be..



#32 work7

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 12:48 PM

Two different worlds! To bad you guys aren't able to join us!  Than maybe you would have a clue.



#33 FHS1985

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 12:50 PM

Once again what you call "browbeating" is another persons daily circumstances...  At some point you have to get out of your "intellectual comfort zone" and do more research to really understand the concerns that are being brought to light.  The Initial inflection point of pain is to get your attention that something is wrong if you stay in that pain cycle you are unable to listen or hear what that concern genuine or not might be..

I worked in a prison, so I've seen young, primarily black, men in difficult circumstances.  I tried to treat them with as much humanity and dignity as I could given that they were inmates, convicted of terrible crimes-often against other black people.  I think there are plenty of other people who deal with these problems on a daily basis in a constructive manner-it shouldn't be asking too much to enjoy a ball game without having to hear about those issues there as well.


Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

― C.S. Lewis


#34 work7

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 01:06 PM

I worked in a prison, so I've seen young, primarily black, men in difficult circumstances.  I tried to treat them with as much humanity and dignity as I could given that they were inmates, convicted of terrible crimes-often against other black people.  I think there are plenty of other people who deal with these problems on a daily basis in a constructive manner-it shouldn't be asking too much to enjoy a ball game without having to hear about those issues there as well.

So bascially you believe it's a inconvenience while you are enjoying your ball game?  Black on Black crime is very similiar to White on White crime. Please come out of your world and understand that there is a major problem with racial inequality. Ignoring it or conveniently acknowledging it when you feel appropiate is not going to make it go away. 



#35 FHS1985

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 01:20 PM

So bascially you believe it's a inconvenience while you are enjoying your ball game?  Black on Black crime is very similiar to White on White crime. Please come out of your world and understand that there is a major problem with racial inequality. Ignoring it or conveniently acknowledging it when you feel appropiate is not going to make it go away. 

What I am saying is that people don't want to constantly have to deal with an issue that they can do little about.  The issue of crime in the black community is a lot more complex than the discussion we are having here or that which is taking place via the intersection of race and the NFL.  But knowing that it is more complicated and then hearing a version which is overly simplified (in which frankly the chief point seems to be that if you don't feel some vague guilt about the situation you are a terrible person) is exhausting.  We could have that conversation here, but then we get into the "uncomfortable" parts which turn people off (but which themselves are also not so simple).  There's only so much time and attention you can devote to any one issue-just let us watch the ballgame in peace!


Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

― C.S. Lewis


#36 Creekprogram

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 01:25 PM

I worked in a prison, so I've seen young, primarily black, men in difficult circumstances.  I tried to treat them with as much humanity and dignity as I could given that they were inmates, convicted of terrible crimes-often against other black people.  I think there are plenty of other people who deal with these problems on a daily basis in a constructive manner-it shouldn't be asking too much to enjoy a ball game without having to hear about those issues there as well.

 

Ok now we are getting somewhere.....you saw depending on your position the worse of a group of people who succumbed to there circumstances and made bad decisions to get there.  You used the words "tried to treat them" so quite possibly you were a Guard or Social worker?.  I do understand now why your position is that you want your sports to be an escape from what you had to deal with on a day to day basis within the penal system....makes sense...

 

I submit to you that the the same feeling you have about your sports is the same feeling a group of people have about areas of there lives that should be a refuge but are not.....a few examples..."Routine traffic stop, Purchasing candy and walking home, standing on a street selling items with the permission of the store owner, playing in a park with a toy gun".  Please do not think I am painting society with a broad brush just stating that we all have areas of refuge that at some point are painfully violated and the only recourse is to violate real or perceived the refuge of those inflicting the pain... 



#37 work7

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 01:37 PM

What I am saying is that people don't want to constantly have to deal with an issue that they can do little about.  The issue of crime in the black community is a lot more complex than the discussion we are having here or that which is taking place via the intersection of race and the NFL.  But knowing that it is more complicated and then hearing a version which is overly simplified (in which frankly the chief point seems to be that if you don't feel some vague guilt about the situation you are a terrible person) is exhausting.  We could have that conversation here, but then we get into the "uncomfortable" parts which turn people off (but which themselves are also not so simple).  There's only so much time and attention you can devote to any one issue-just let us watch the ballgame in peace!

It's evident that the posistion Colin Kapernick took, disagree or agree it's working. People are talking! Always the guy who's least affected who take's the position not happening to me so i'll just watch the game and ignore! 



#38 FHS1985

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 01:37 PM

Ok now we are getting somewhere.....you saw depending on your position the worse of a group of people who succumbed to there circumstances and made bad decisions to get there.  You used the words "tried to treat them" so quite possibly you were a Guard or Social worker?.  I do understand now why your position is that you want your sports to be an escape from what you had to deal with on a day to day basis within the penal system....makes sense...

 

I submit to you that the the same feeling you have about your sports is the same feeling a group of people have about areas of there lives that should be a refuge but are not.....a few examples..."Routine traffic stop, Purchasing candy and walking home, standing on a street selling items with the permission of the store owner, playing in a park with a toy gun".  Please do not think I am painting society with a broad brush just stating that we all have areas of refuge that at some point are painfully violated and the only recourse is to violate the refuge of those inflicting the pain... 

I have great sympathy with a lot of the issues you have mentioned.  There is a legitimate case to be made about how the police interact with citizens on a regular basis-that probably impacts black people more than whites, but everyone ought to be concerned with how those with authority treat citizens.  When I say "tried to treat them", what I mean is that I didn't disrespect them and that I did what I could for them given the rules.  That's what anyone who works in those circumstances ought to do-but it isn't always easy.  A lot of those guys made a terrible mistake and regretted it and others had not gotten to that point-still you treated them with as much humanity as possible.  Furthermore, I-and I think most people-make every effort to be as fair in dealing with others on a regular basis as we can, but there's only so much we can do.

 

Look, I'll raise one issue that's related just for an example.  We used to have a preacher who came into the jail who had been an inmate.  He could reach the guys in ways that I never could and one of the things he talked about was fatherlessness.  Now, a lot of those young men had been raised without fathers, so they often lacked a good example about how they should act.  And he would talk about their responsibility to their own kids.  Coming from him, that could make an impact, but me talking about it?  I'd likely get ignored.  It just seems to me like there are ways to move this conversation forward, but I'm not hearing a lot of what could be said.  Maybe that's more than what sports writers and broadcasters want to take on, I don't know. 


Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

― C.S. Lewis


#39 coachE42

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 01:39 PM

As a History teacher, the majority of our country's history centers around segregation and discrimination.  No matter how you look at it, America was not founded on values of equality.  It started with the forced removal of Native Americans from their lands, land which they were on long before the White settlers came from Europe.  It then moved into Slavery, which was somewhat abolished by the passage of the 13th Amendment, although if you really read the wording of the amendment, slavery is still very much legal in today's society.  The next 100 years may have been worse for African-Americans than any other period in their history in America.  Finally, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Voting Rights Act of 1965 seemed to be bringing change to America....Not so fast my friend.  African Americans still face the harsh realities that they are treated differently just because the color of their skin on a daily basis.  As a white male, living in America, I do not even pretend to know what it is like to live in America as an African American, but I am definitely not dumb enough to believe that they live the same life I do. 

 

Sorry for the history lesson, but it is easy to see why Kaepernick is taking his stand against the injustices in America.  Do i necessarily agree in him not standing for the National Anthem, heck no, but I also believe in the 1st Amendment.



#40 FHS1985

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 01:41 PM

It's evident that the posistion Colin Kapernick took, disagree or agree it's working. People are talking! Always the guy who's least affected who take's the position not happening to me so i'll just watch the game and ignore! 

 

If I can't watch the game without all of the problems of life being interjected I'm just going to turn it off.  Sports are a distraction from those problems and one that I enjoy, but there are plenty of others.  I don't think every second of every day ought to be devoted to any and every injustice others might bring up-there are not end to those.


Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

― C.S. Lewis


#41 FHS1985

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 01:47 PM

As a History teacher, the majority of our country's history centers around segregation and discrimination.  No matter how you look at it, America was not founded on values of equality.  It started with the forced removal of Native Americans from their lands, land which they were on long before the White settlers came from Europe.  It then moved into Slavery, which was somewhat abolished by the passage of the 13th Amendment, although if you really read the wording of the amendment, slavery is still very much legal in today's society.  The next 100 years may have been worse for African-Americans than any other period in their history in America.  Finally, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Voting Rights Act of 1965 seemed to be bringing change to America....Not so fast my friend.  African Americans still face the harsh realities that they are treated differently just because the color of their skin on a daily basis.  As a white male, living in America, I do not even pretend to know what it is like to live in America as an African American, but I am definitely not dumb enough to believe that they live the same life I do. 

 

Sorry for the history lesson, but it is easy to see why Kaepernick is taking his stand against the injustices in America.  Do i necessarily agree in him not standing for the National Anthem, heck no, but I also believe in the 1st Amendment.

 

Like every other nation in the history of the world America has struggled with issues of inequality.  How well we have done with that issue is open to interpretation-you certainly mentioned several instances of America taking steps of trying to deal with it.  But ultimately people aren't going to beat themselves up over every real or perceived injustice every second of every minute of every day.

 

Enough of the social justice warrioring-let us watch some football.


Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

― C.S. Lewis


#42 work7

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 01:55 PM

If I can't watch the game without all of the problems of life being interjected I'm just going to turn it off.  Sports are a distraction from those problems and one that I enjoy, but there are plenty of others.  I don't think every second of every day ought to be devoted to any and every injustice others might bring up-there are not end to those.

So you just watch your game and let the people who give a damn, create change. 



#43 Creekprogram

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 01:57 PM

“It is from numberless diverse acts of courage and belief that human history is shaped. Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring, those ripples build a current that can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance.” ~ Robert F. Kennedy South Africa, 1966



#44 FHS1985

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 01:58 PM

So you just watch your game and let the people who give a damn, create change. 

I think I've explained myself perfectly well above.  I've done what I can to have a positive impact on the lives of others where I can.  I just don't think that I should have to devote every waking moment to the effort, and that I, and others like me, should be free from constant hectoring when we choose to try and enjoy ourselves (see my sig line).


Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

― C.S. Lewis


#45 FHS1985

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 02:01 PM

“It is from numberless diverse acts of courage and belief that human history is shaped. Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring, those ripples build a current that can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance.” ~ Robert F. Kennedy South Africa, 1966

 

That's true and perfectly appropriate to where and when RFK was when he said it.  But I bet he didn't come home and stand on the 50 yards line of the Harvard/Yale game at halftime and repeat it while the crowd was trying to enjoy the game.


Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

― C.S. Lewis


#46 work7

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 02:10 PM

I think I've explained myself perfectly well above.  I've done what I can to have a positive impact on the lives of others where I can.  I just don't think that I should have to devote every waking moment to the effort, and that I, and others like me, should be free from constant hectoring when we choose to try and enjoy ourselves (see my sig line).

I don't recall anyone asking for your assistance? I will stop watching a Football game to assist anyone who is need.Nothing on this planet excites me more. My priorties are different than yours.  



#47 Creekprogram

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 02:13 PM

That's true and perfectly appropriate to where and when RFK was when he said it.  But I bet he didn't come home and stand on the 50 yards line of the Harvard/Yale game at halftime and repeat it while the crowd was trying to enjoy the game.

 

If he would have it could have been another one of those defining moments  ;) .  I enjoy the debate and the exchange of information It only helps in educating at least the folks who frequent this board on things that touch our athletic pastimes.  

 

The RFK quote references to "ripple effect" I do believe in this circumstance has started that ripple effect.... early news reports have the Seattle Seahawks are possibly demonstrating on Sunday in some type of Team fashion...and West Virginia Tech Volleyball kneel  for the Anthem last night before there game...

 

http://www.cbssports...ational-anthem/

 

http://wchstv.com/ne...national-anthem



#48 FHS1985

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 02:15 PM

I don't recall anyone asking for your assistance? I will stop watching a Football game to assist anyone who is need.Nothing on this planet excites me more. My priorties are different than yours.  

You must not spend much time watching football then, because the last time I looked there were millions of people in need.  Do you presume to tell me that you spend every waking second engaged in helping anyone who might be in need?  Please, right now you are arguing with me and there are probably thousands within a short drive of you who are desperately in need.  We all do what we can and recharge with what distractions we enjoy-give me a break.


Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

― C.S. Lewis


#49 FHS1985

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 02:17 PM

If he would have it could have been another one of those defining moments  ;) .  I enjoy the debate and the exchange of information It only helps in educating at least the folks who frequent this board on things that touch our athletic pastimes.  

 

The JFK quote references to "ripple effect" I do believe in this circumstance has started that ripple effect.... early news reports have the Seattle Seahawks are possibly demonstrating on Sunday in some type of Team fashion...and West Virginia Tech Volleyball kneel  for the Anthem last night before there game...

 

http://www.cbssports...ational-anthem/

 

http://wchstv.com/ne...national-anthem

 

I am also enjoying the debate and I agree that it is productive-thanks for the frank discussion, all too often people get defensive and these discussion degenerates.


Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

― C.S. Lewis


#50 Wrigley

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 02:25 PM

Like every other nation in the history of the world America has struggled with issues of inequality. How well we have done with that issue is open to interpretation-you certainly mentioned several instances of America taking steps of trying to deal with it. But ultimately people aren't going to beat themselves up over every real or perceived injustice every second of every minute of every day.

Enough of the social justice warrioring-let us watch some football.


Thats a pretty easy statement to make when you are not the subject of the oppression.





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