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#1 The Outcast

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 08:26 PM

https://youtu.be/inzwAWOXlbg

 

sorry for broke link, it's fixed/  Please click on it is worth it.



#2 Madmanx2

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 08:32 PM

Broke link

#3 BroadwayJ

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 05:45 AM

Bravo Jeff Fisher !



#4 FHS1985

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 07:06 AM

Team USA Hockey coach told his guys that if they didn't stand for the national anthem they could just stay on the bench for the rest of the tournament.  That's the thing-the organization can set a standard for behavior and enforce it.  In the case of Kaepernick the NFL (and the 49ers) declined to do that-though the NFL told the Cowboys that they could not wear a helmet sticker in honor of the Dallas PD a few weeks ago.  This isn't a first amendment issue.  The first amendment (all of the Bill of Rights) are about the relationship between the government and individuals (or the states themselves-i.e. 9th and 10th), but your employer can require you to behave in a certtain way or tell you to hit the bricks

 

I heard this morning that the Washington women's soccer team played the national anthem before the players took the field which put the kibosh on Megan Rapinoe's little stunt.  There was a tweet with a picture of her draped in the flag for the women's world cup just last year, seems she wasn't too ashamed of our country then.


Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

― C.S. Lewis


#5 Wrigley

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 07:39 AM

I dont think the NFL wants to enact that type of policy. They are praying that with the start of actual football that this story goes away.

Start mandating behavior on this political grenade with a large portion of your workforce in agreement with Kapernick's stand if not his actions and you have escalated the story and very likely create a stand off. Its lose-lose for the NFL.

They are praying that after a weekend of football the story fades.

While i respect Tortorella's position it isnt exactly a high risk. Im thinking the odds of one of the USA'S hockey players refusing to stand is extremely remote.

#6 GDG

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 07:56 AM

I will not watch another NFL game this year. I proudly believe in the rights of an individual and free speech but this great nation is worlds ahead of any nation around the globe. All businesses have ethical codes one must abide in and so should the NFL.

As far as Dallas and the stickers goes I agree with the NFL. One sticker becomes many more and it will never end. The fallen law enforcement were honored by the Cowboys in many other ways.

#7 Wrigley

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 08:23 AM

I will not watch another NFL game this year. I proudly believe in the rights of an individual and free speech but this great nation is worlds ahead of any nation around the globe. All businesses have ethical codes one must abide in and so should the NFL.

As far as Dallas and the stickers goes I agree with the NFL. One sticker becomes many more and it will never end. The fallen law enforcement were honored by the Cowboys in many other ways.


I respect that but am curious. Why the ethical conundrum now?

Domestic violence, drug violations, multiply felonies , theft, aniamal abuse, assault and battery, weapons charges, disorderly conduct, child abuse

Ethical code?? These are actual laws broken by active players.

None of that was enough to get you to turn off the TV but the lawful actions of a-player and the NFL'S inaction has caused you to discontinue?

#8 FHS1985

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 08:27 AM

I dont think the NFL wants to enact that type of policy. They are praying that with the start of actual football that this story goes away.

Start mandating behavior on this political grenade with a large portion of your workforce in agreement with Kapernick's stand if not his actions and you have escalated the story and very likely create a stand off. Its lose-lose for the NFL.

They are praying that after a weekend of football the story fades.

While i respect Tortorella's position it isnt exactly a high risk. Im thinking the odds of one of the USA'S hockey players refusing to stand is extremely remote.

And if it doesn't go away then what?  I have been a Panthers PSL holder since 2001 and during that time I guarantee you that I have spent over $50,000 going to games, if I see the any of the Panthers sitting or kneeling during the national anthem I am done.  I can take a stand as well.  I love football, but I was in the Army and perfectly willing to die for my country, I won't see it openly disrespected and pay for the privilege, this isn't something that I will just let go.

 

I will not watch another NFL game this year. I proudly believe in the rights of an individual and free speech but this great nation is worlds ahead of any nation around the globe. All businesses have ethical codes one must abide in and so should the NFL.

As far as Dallas and the stickers goes I agree with the NFL. One sticker becomes many more and it will never end. The fallen law enforcement were honored by the Cowboys in many other ways.

I get that, but it certainly leads to the perception that only certain kinds of protests are okay with the NFL.  The same sort of logic applies, one kneeling protester mad about one certain thing leads to others mad about lots of other things and it will never end.


Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

― C.S. Lewis


#9 FHS1985

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 08:35 AM

I respect that but am curious. Why the ethical conundrum now?

Domestic violence, drug violations, multiply felonies , theft, aniamal abuse, assault and battery, weapons charges, disorderly conduct, child abuse

Ethical code?? These are actual laws broken by active players.

None of that was enough to get you to turn off the TV but the lawful actions of a-player and the NFL'S inaction has caused you to discontinue?

 

For me the difference is this-those actions taken by those individuals were punished by the league.  The league said essentially "if you do that then you will face some sort of punishment".  I think the league has made all sorts of mistakes, but I can respect how they have tried to deal with those actions on a case by case basis (all of the players that I can think of in those cases apologized for their actions as well).  If Kaepernick had said something like "I think Black Lives Matter raises some valid points regarding police abuse" or "America has racial problems we need to try to overcome", well then I think most people would have not batted an eye-even though we may not approve of BLM.  But Kaepernick essentially said "I am going to openly disprespect this country which means a great deal to a great many because of its shortcomings.  Sorry, that's not something I can just overlook.


Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

― C.S. Lewis


#10 GDG

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 09:49 AM

I respect that but am curious. Why the ethical conundrum now?

Domestic violence, drug violations, multiply felonies , theft, aniamal abuse, assault and battery, weapons charges, disorderly conduct, child abuse

Ethical code?? These are actual laws broken by active players.

None of that was enough to get you to turn off the TV but the lawful actions of a-player and the NFL'S inaction has caused you to discontinue?


All of which you note on athlete's breaking laws have diminished my watching over the years. I rarely watch pro football or basketball or baseball due to the actions of rich athletes. I cannot watch a whole nation be disrespected when so many have died for the rights we enjoy including his right to protest. But for me burning a flag over Vietnam or not standing which slights many who died or lost limbs symbolizes total disrespect for group of freedom fighters I cherish.

I was a long life fan of Dallas but that came to an end when owner Jerry Jones abandoned the values I admired with Coach Tom Landry. Now anything goes to win and the misfits keep getting a job in Dallas. Nobody in this house will be allowed to view an NFL game, I pay the bill, I make the rules.

#11 Creekprogram

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 09:59 AM

For me the difference is this-those actions taken by those individuals were punished by the league.  The league said essentially "if you do that then you will face some sort of punishment".  I think the league has made all sorts of mistakes, but I can respect how they have tried to deal with those actions on a case by case basis (all of the players that I can think of in those cases apologized for their actions as well).  If Kaepernick had said something like "I think Black Lives Matter raises some valid points regarding police abuse" or "America has racial problems we need to try to overcome", well then I think most people would have not batted an eye-even though we may not approve of BLM.  But Kaepernick essentially said "I am going to openly disprespect this country which means a great deal to a great many because of its shortcomings.  Sorry, that's not something I can just overlook.

 

 

"If Kaepernick had said something like "I think Black Lives Matter raises some valid points regarding police abuse" or "America has racial problems we need to try to overcome", well then I think most people would have not batted an eye-even though we may not approve of BLM."

 

Very amusing statement above and it speaks to the problem because some people are uncomfortable and do not want there Professional Athletes to be socially conscious and do not want there personal intellectual comfort zone disturbed ....Change only comes when there is discomfort and that has proven true not only in matters of politics but human nature as well.  Under the First Amendment he has the right to do what he is doing just as you have the same right to not like it.  There is an education and national conversation occurring about Anthem which although "painful" for some speaks to the true nature of what this Country represents.   



#12 FHS1985

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 10:06 AM

"If Kaepernick had said something like "I think Black Lives Matter raises some valid points regarding police abuse" or "America has racial problems we need to try to overcome", well then I think most people would have not batted an eye-even though we may not approve of BLM."

 

Very amusing statement above and it speaks to the problem because some people are uncomfortable and do not want there Professional Athletes to be socially conscious and do not want there personal intellectual comfort zone disturbed ....Change only comes when there is discomfort and that has proven true not only in matters of politics but human nature as well.  Under the First Amendment he has the right to do what he is doing just as you have the same right to not like it.  There is an education and national conversation occurring about Anthem which although "painful" for some speaks to the true nature of what this Country represents.   

Nowhere did I say that professional athletes should not be socially conscious, what I said was that there is a time and a place for it and an appropriate way to communicate it.  I certainly don't appreciate anyone trying to make me feel some "discomfort" on my own dime and I won't pay for it.  As covered above, this is not a first amendment issue-the government is not taking any action regarding Kaepernick, nor should it.   But the league has every right to set a standard of behavior and open disrespect for the country ought to be part of that.  If it isn't then my money will stay in my pocket-and I suspect that a lot of fans will agree.  And what exactly do you think the "true nature of what this country represents" is anyway?  If it means that the country is imperfect and has issues it needs to work on-well then I agree.  If you think that it means that the country is openly oppressive-well sorry, but we seriously disagree.


Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

― C.S. Lewis


#13 Wrigley

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 10:11 AM

All of which you note on athlete's breaking laws have diminished my watching over the years. I rarely watch pro football or basketball or baseball due to the actions of rich athletes. I cannot watch a whole nation be disrespected when so many have died for the rights we enjoy including his right to protest. But for me burning a flag over Vietnam or not standing which slights many who died or lost limbs symbolizes total disrespect for group of freedom fighters I cherish.

I was a long life fan of Dallas but that came to an end when owner Jerry Jones abandoned the values I admired with Coach Tom Landry. Now anything goes to win and the misfits keep getting a job in Dallas. Nobody in this house will be allowed to view an NFL game, I pay the bill, I make the rules.


I certainly respect that but you do understand that those rights that people have died for include his right to sit during the national anthem. Right?

The flag and anthem means different things to different people one of which is freedom to do exactly what he is doing.

I am cynical by nature and question Mr. Kapernick's motives but have far bigger issurs with the Greg Hardy's and Aquib Talib's of the world than i do with someone practicing his constitutionally upheld right.

#14 Wrigley

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 10:14 AM

Nowhere did I say that professional athletes should not be socially conscious, what I said was that there is a time and a place for it and an appropriate way to communicate it. I certainly don't appreciate anyone trying to make me feel some "discomfort" on my own dime and I won't pay for it. As covered above, this is not a first amendment issue-the government is not taking any action regarding Kaepernick, nor should it. But the league has every right to set a standard of behavior and open disrespect for the country ought to be part of that. If it isn't then my money will stay in my pocket-and I suspect that a lot of fans will agree. And what exactly do you think the "true nature of what this country represents" is anyway? If it means that the country is imperfect and has issues it needs to work on-well then I agree. If you think that it means that the country is openly oppressive-well sorry, but we seriously disagree.


The league will set viewership records this weekend and it will have nothing to do with the anthem. Time and again its been proven that the NFL is the runaway train of capitalism. People are starving for it. It cant be stopped.

#15 CatholicCougs14

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 10:14 AM

Why is this discussion on here? Shouldnt it be in the OT forum?

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#16 Wrigley

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 10:19 AM

Nowhere did I say that professional athletes should not be socially conscious, what I said was that there is a time and a place for it and an appropriate way to communicate it. I certainly don't appreciate anyone trying to make me feel some "discomfort" on my own dime and I won't pay for it. As covered above, this is not a first amendment issue-the government is not taking any action regarding Kaepernick, nor should it. But the league has every right to set a standard of behavior and open disrespect for the country ought to be part of that. If it isn't then my money will stay in my pocket-and I suspect that a lot of fans will agree. And what exactly do you think the "true nature of what this country represents" is anyway? If it means that the country is imperfect and has issues it needs to work on-well then I agree. If you think that it means that the country is openly oppressive-well sorry, but we seriously disagree.


Think quickly about the word " discomfort" and ask yourself what change this country has taken on without it?

Been alot of uncomfortable moments through out history.

#17 Creekprogram

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 10:19 AM

Nowhere did I say that professional athletes should not be socially conscious, what I said was that there is a time and a place for it and an appropriate way to communicate it.  I certainly don't appreciate anyone trying to make me feel some "discomfort" on my own dime and I won't pay for it.  As covered above, this is not a first amendment issue-the government is not taking any action regarding Kaepernick, nor should it.   But the league has every right to set a standard of behavior and open disrespect for the country ought to be part of that.  If it isn't then my money will stay in my pocket-and I suspect that a lot of fans will agree.  And what exactly do you think the "true nature of what this country represents" is anyway?  If it means that the country is imperfect and has issues it needs to work on-well then I agree.  If you think that it means that the country is openly oppressive-well sorry, but we seriously disagree.

 

Once again your opinion, your right and your "intellectual comfort zone".  

 

The League and TeamOwnership and lets not leave them out first and foremost are a business and they will make decisions based on revenue and sponsor reaction its really that simple...

 

The state of the Country and how it has oppressed or not oppressed is a personal, cultural, regional and societal conversation which dissenting views on that exist....I really think this has helped with education on many levels and the fact that it has become part of a broader conversation is a good thing...



#18 Jwelch20

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 10:30 AM

Once again your opinion, your right and your "intellectual comfort zone".

The League and TeamOwnership and lets not leave them out first and foremost are a business and they will make decisions based on revenue and sponsor reaction its really that simple...

The state of the Country and how it has oppressed or not oppressed is a personal, cultural, regional and societal conversation which dissenting views on that exist....I really think this has helped with education on many levels and the fact that it has become part of a broader conversation is a good thing...

I think some people aee missing the point. I dont think kapernick was being socially conscious. I think the real reason didnt stand up for the national anthem is he is upset at the 49ers because he was already the backup and was possible going to be cut. He didnt have a problem standing up for it when he was starting. I think he is just deflecting the real issue of being upset with 49ers. I too served i. The military and he showed mo class at all.

#19 Creekprogram

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 10:40 AM

I think some people aee missing the point. I dont think kapernick was being socially conscious. I think the real reason didnt stand up for the national anthem is he is upset at the 49ers because he was already the backup and was possible going to be cut. He didnt have a problem standing up for it when he was starting. I think he is just deflecting the real issue of being upset with 49ers. I too served i. The military and he showed mo class at all.

 

Hmmmm definitelly a different "intellectual comfort zone"  :blink:



#20 Wrigley

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 10:43 AM

Well as i said before. I am suspect of his motives as well. That said for those if you who think there will be some disasterous backlash on the NFL.

Find out whos jersey is the #1 seller in the NFL..you got it. Kapernick#7

#21 FHS1985

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 10:52 AM

Think quickly about the word " discomfort" and ask yourself what change this country has taken on without it?

Been alot of uncomfortable moments through out history.


Define discomfort and we'll talk about it. The great and kind and just American people have done a great many things out of a sense that it was the right thing to do. Regardless of the justness of the issue I don't think we should be browbeaten about it at every opportunity-I watch sports to get away from the stresses of everyday life. If sports are no longer a refuge I will give them a pass, who needs it?

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

― C.S. Lewis


#22 FHS1985

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 10:54 AM

Once again your opinion, your right and your "intellectual comfort zone".

The League and TeamOwnership and lets not leave them out first and foremost are a business and they will make decisions based on revenue and sponsor reaction its really that simple...

The state of the Country and how it has oppressed or not oppressed is a personal, cultural, regional and societal conversation which dissenting views on that exist....I really think this has helped with education on many levels and the fact that it has become part of a broader conversation is a good thing...


Ok-the broad discussion is a good thing-does it really have to invade every aspect of life?

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

― C.S. Lewis


#23 Creekprogram

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 10:57 AM

Ok-the broad discussion is a good thing-does it really have to invade every aspect of life?

 

Areas of refuge are the places were "discomfort" can be applied to get the maximum result.....the proverbial upset the apple cart..  One persons refuge is another persons discomfort...



#24 MongolGuru

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 10:58 AM

Find out whos jersey is the #1 seller in the NFL..you got it. Kapernick#7

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#25 work7

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 10:59 AM

I think some people aee missing the point. I dont think kapernick was being socially conscious. I think the real reason didnt stand up for the national anthem is he is upset at the 49ers because he was already the backup and was possible going to be cut. He didnt have a problem standing up for it when he was starting. I think he is just deflecting the real issue of being upset with 49ers. I too served i. The military and he showed mo class at all.

That's your opinion! I don't think? I think the real reason? I too served? I think he? 







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