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"Cheaters"


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#1 CMChargers

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 01:36 PM

Jim, I did want to say a few things about the topic. 1st, my statement was a rebuttal to you bringing up college sports, so I did not mean to derail the thread, I was just poking back. 2nd, I know you can't accuse every student athlete of participating in this corrupt system, but thousands of cases is an epidemic and gives the athletic department a black eye that would be tough to cover up in recruiting, which is why I said they couldn't sell academic validity. Sorry if you felt that it was an attack on you as a UNC graduate, it was meant to be a jab at the heads of the university and athletic department who allowed this to take place under their nose. 

 

 



#2 Jim West

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 02:04 PM

I'm a realist...UNC got caught cheating from systemic abuse.  Just like you, I've read the reports and know that the abuse was widespread and not isolated with just the football team.

 

I'm also very much against stereotypes.  Having grown up in the South and specifically Stanly County, I saw on many occasions people being belittled for matters outside of their control, such as the color of their skin or their last name.  And yes, some were stereotyped because they attended that "redneck" high school in the Northern section of the county.  Creating a "cheating" stereotype for the typical UNC football player is unfair to the football players that strive for a quality education.  It is also unfair when that stereotype goes outside the boundaries of the athletic programs.  And yes, contrary from what you may think, the stereotype bleeds all the way to the who received their degrees 22 years ago.

 

Any athlete that abused the system was nothing but a thief.   The cheating athlete stole away his/her chance to get a quality education.  The cheating athlete stole precious time from our administrators time that could be better used elsewhere.  The cheating athlete also damaged the reputation of a quality institution.  

 

I have a former teacher that is still a Lecturer in the African-American Department.  The guy has been teaching at UNC for 30 years.  If there is one guy that I feel the most sorry for the most, it is this former teacher (and a friend...he attended my wedding 20 years ago).  He is a hard working guy, a guy that has a passion for teaching, and truth be told, was probably the best teacher I had at UNC.  However, most now label him as nothing but an enabler of the cheating.  His name was never brought up in any of the reports, but because he taught in that department, he will be stereotyped forever.

 

You may or may not have been stereotyped in the past.  It is not fun whatsoever, and after awhile the joust of words are nothing more than a slap in the face.  While I know that wasn't your intention, your words of supposed humor was a slap in the face to many of us.

 

That being stated, no hard feelings.



#3 Chris Hughes

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 02:27 PM

And the biggest fact of the matter is this.  I know the college football landscape very well.  I am personal friends with a plethora of college assistant coaches and even a few high profile head coaches.  With that said, every, and let me say it a bit clearer, EVERY program in the nation has had some sort of academic fraud, or cheating, or pushing the envelope the slightest bit for athletes, whether in football, basketball, or whatever applicable sport, but UNC was caught.

 

Had UNC defensive tackle Marvin Austin not sent the tweets he sent when attending an agents party, these faults may have never seen the light of day.

 

Now personally, and I will state that I am a UNC Tar Heels fan, I am glad that this academic fraud case has came to light because it means that a problem existed and it can be fixed. 

 

Yes it's embarrassing for the program you support to go through this, and even more embarrassing for graduates like Jim West to deal with, but what Carolina did was no worse than what most other programs have done, or are still doing.  It's just that the microscope is on UNC at this time.

 

What I don't like about this case is how certain media outlets, especially college fan-based media and recruiting sites have jumped on this and dug for every bit of evidence they could find, not for the purpose of fixing the problem or finding a solution, but more so to embarrass the other school.  Yes i'm pointing at you N.C. State sites and fans.

 

I'm not your typical UNC fan, I actually do support N.C. State and Duke because I'm friends with coaches on those staffs and I want them to succeed.  It not only makes the ACC better, it makes our state better.  I want N.C. State and Duke to go 11-1 every year with that one loss being to UNC, but unfortunately over zealous fans of the other institutions find it more fun to throw stones than to support their fellow citizens.

 

Again though, with all of the academic fraud cases that have come light, this is actually a good thing in my mind.  It can serve as a catalyst for change, and clean up the system to include eliminating any rouge staff members who worked against the standards and ethics set forth by the institution. 

 

If investigators can determine that a head coach not only suggested cheating, but actually through is means of control and manipulation facilitated it, he should be banned for life.  This goes deeper than just college sports, it shows a pattern of how we as a society are sharply going down hill and just looks bad for us as a nation.  Our society needs to straighten up and get their priorities right, and our ethics back on track to what they should be. 



#4 CMChargers

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 09:22 PM

And the biggest fact of the matter is this.  I know the college football landscape very well.  I am personal friends with a plethora of college assistant coaches and even a few high profile head coaches.  With that said, every, and let me say it a bit clearer, EVERY program in the nation has had some sort of academic fraud, or cheating, or pushing the envelope the slightest bit for athletes, whether in football, basketball, or whatever applicable sport, but UNC was caught.

 

Had UNC defensive tackle Marvin Austin not sent the tweets he sent when attending an agents party, these faults may have never seen the light of day.

 

Now personally, and I will state that I am a UNC Tar Heels fan, I am glad that this academic fraud case has came to light because it means that a problem existed and it can be fixed. 

 

Yes it's embarrassing for the program you support to go through this, and even more embarrassing for graduates like Jim West to deal with, but what Carolina did was no worse than what most other programs have done, or are still doing.  It's just that the microscope is on UNC at this time.

 

What I don't like about this case is how certain media outlets, especially college fan-based media and recruiting sites have jumped on this and dug for every bit of evidence they could find, not for the purpose of fixing the problem or finding a solution, but more so to embarrass the other school.  Yes i'm pointing at you N.C. State sites and fans.

 

I'm not your typical UNC fan, I actually do support N.C. State and Duke because I'm friends with coaches on those staffs and I want them to succeed.  It not only makes the ACC better, it makes our state better.  I want N.C. State and Duke to go 11-1 every year with that one loss being to UNC, but unfortunately over zealous fans of the other institutions find it more fun to throw stones than to support their fellow citizens.

 

Again though, with all of the academic fraud cases that have come light, this is actually a good thing in my mind.  It can serve as a catalyst for change, and clean up the system to include eliminating any rouge staff members who worked against the standards and ethics set forth by the institution. 

 

If investigators can determine that a head coach not only suggested cheating, but actually through is means of control and manipulation facilitated it, he should be banned for life.  This goes deeper than just college sports, it shows a pattern of how we as a society are sharply going down hill and just looks bad for us as a nation.  Our society needs to straighten up and get their priorities right, and our ethics back on track to what they should be. 

 

Great post. Yes there is cheating everywhere, it just comes in many different forms. At Notre Dame, as everyone knows, it's kids getting caught cheating on test resulting in them being thrown out of school. At the no rules programs of the SEC, it's kids that come from dirt poor backgrounds somehow driving Dodge Chargers around. As a fan of a program that refuses to trade integrity for wins, it frustrates me that these tactics are what wins national championships. Instead of increasing cheating because, "everyone does it", the NCAA needs to put the hammer down and start vacating wins and championships if these programs don't get their act together. 

 

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#5 btango

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 11:06 PM

Unfortunately Notre Dame has had its share.

 

Think about it this way.  How would the average student do if he were put on the football field on a Saturday?  Not too good.

 

Average college footballer at UNC (and any other college) is going to be probably in the middle of his class without the toughest classes, although the ones to get him into college.  He will quite possibly go to a school that is not at the top of the academic lists.  Now we are going to send that student to one of the top public universities in America.  He is going to basically work a 40 hour week (football related to include watching film on his own, getting taped, and not to mention recovering from physical exertion and possibly a beating at practice before study hall).  We want that person to go set in the classroom with the very top students, some from the best high schools in the US, and compete with them.  You have got to be shitting me.



#6 Chris Hughes

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 08:58 AM

It happens everywhere at any level! Check this out

US Little League champs vacate wins for using ineligible players

http://www.cbssports...ligible-players

 

I know Don, very sad.  I'm watching them talk about that now on Mike & Mike.  It's even worse at this level because these young kids had nothing to do with the mistakes and wrong doings done by adults. 



#7 CatholicCougs14

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Posted 13 February 2015 - 02:54 PM

I think personally the NCAA had a chance to really send a message with the Miami case a couple of years back. Most you know I love my Hurricanes but they did screw up. Shannon tried to do his best to keep Shapiro away from the program but you as a coach cannot monitor 100+ players 24/7. 

The NCAA fumbled that case in a way that any major sanctions would've been met by a law suit that would've destroyed the case like it was no ones business because Shalala for all the grief Miami fans give her was ready to go to war. 

The NCAA is an institution that will turn a blind eye to cheating if you are winning though. Heck let's say Miami was a national power and maybe won a national title in the last 4 years do you really think the investigation goes as deep as it did?

If they went that deep at Bama or LSU or MISS ST or Tennessee etc they'd be there for years uncovering all the stuff they are doing. It's just how the game is and as CMChargers said unless they start giving out the death penalty or stripping national titles nothing will change. And my money is on nothing changing at least not with that joke Emmert as the President


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